[Dragaera] States and violence (was Re: OT: Ray Bradbury)

[Jerry Friedman]

--- Davdi Silverrock <davdisil at gmail.com> wrote:

> On 7/22/07, Jerry Friedman  wrote:
> 
> >
> > I suppose that's true.  However, Morrolan tells Vlad, "A formal
> > declaration of war isn't called for in an action of this type.
> > I'll just send him a message demanding the return of the sword,
> > or accusing him of stealing it, and that will accomplish the
> > same thing" (Chapter 3, p. 55 of the paperback).  I find it
> > hard to imagine that if Fornia and Morrolan need a war
> > license, they don't need a formal declaration of war.
> 
> Hm.  I think I have to concede the point about a literal war license.
> 
> However, consider the following:  Duels in the Empire require a
> neutral party to act as Imperial Witness, as well as other individuals
> to provide for all of the required form.
> 
> So by analogy, while there may not be a literal license that is
> required to wage a private war, it would make sense that there are
> nevertheless forms that must be followed - probably an Imperial
> Witness for each battalion, or something like that (perhaps a neutral
> Lyorn, recording the events for the sake of history, and verifying the
> propriety of the fighting?)

It would make sense, but I don't remember any mention of it.
 
> > >  I am trying to recall the state of the fields that Vlad marched
> > > through.  I seem to recall that they were empty, meaning after the
> > > harvest or before planting of crops.  This would imply that the
> timing
> > > of the war was critical so as not to damage food generation.
> >
> > At first there's not a whole lot about vegetation, cultivated
> > or other.  In Chapter 10, after the first battle, the army
> > reaches the near-desert west of the mountains, with "harsh,
> > rocky ground".  Then in Chapter 12 there's a long march, always
> > west of the mountains, till they reach Baritt's Tomb, with "a
> > few hills here and there, and off to the southwest a flat plain
> > covered with rocks and low grass, then a tall hill beyond."
> > They're definitely not in cropland most of the time, and they
> > may not be ever.
> 
> I think this might be in favor of "Imperial rules that must be
> followed", as in, no battles held on cropland.

Or that's just what the land is like where Fornia's and
Morrolan's territories border, or there's a custom rather than
an Imperial rule not to fight on cropland, or both lords are
prudent enough not to reduce their own rental income and anger
their own peasants.  Or when Vlad notes, "...once we crossed
the river, we could follow it downstream right into the heart
of Fornia's territory," he's thinking that Morrolan would
threaten to destroy crops.  Or some of the other divisions did
trample standing grain.

> > I can imagine the Warlord could be allowed to fight as a private
> > individual.
> 
> I am trying to recall the conversation that Vlad heard about rank in
> the Phoenix Guard, and out of it, and if there was any discussion
> about how one joined an army outside of the Phoenix Guard, if one was
> in the Guard at the time.

Not sure about that one.
 
> > But Savn doesn't think about going to any authority after he
> > gets beaten up.
> 
> I'm not sure that proves anything. The Empire is feudal, and he's a
> kid way at the bottom of the pecking order.  And really, who is he
> going to go *to*?

What it proves is that the Empire claims no monopoly on violence.
It doesn't care about fistfights between adolescent peasants or
about private wars involving thousands of soldiers.  In contrast,
you could say figuratively that the modern United States does
claim a monopoly on violence, and one piece of evidence is that
someone in Savn's position could at least in principle go to some
police force and press charges.

> Hm.  As a counter-example, consider that Aerich got involved when two
> of the (adult) Teckla who worked his lands got into a violent
> argument.

I'm not sure what that's a counter-example to.  Aerich is not
the Empire; he's the feudal lord, and the most powerful and
presumably the most respected person around.
 
> > Not only does no one mention getting permission for the
> > threatened Dragon-Jhereg war in /Jhereg/, but I don't think
> > anyone even mentions the possibility that the Empire might like
> > to stop it.
> 
> Given that the war was by assassination on the Jhereg side, I'm pretty
> sure that it was illegal on its face, and the perpetrators would have
> been in trouble if caught and tried (recall the Executioner's Star...)

Certainly the Jhereg perpetrators would, but there's no hint that
the Dragon side was worried at all about the Empire's involvement
or forgoing their usual disdain for concealment.

And I was talking about the war that Vlad & Co. prevent.  None
of the Dragons ever says, "We'll go to the Empire for permission
to retaliate" or "We'll defy the Empire and retaliate," as far
as I remember.  Nobody even imagines that the Empire would want
to intervene to stop the conflict.  If it claimed a monopoly on
force, someone would at least be thinking about whether to try to
prevent a new Dragon-Jhereg War.

What the Empire claims is the loyalty of its citizen, and when
that doesn't work, it uses its superior force to protect trade
and stability, whether against an out-of-control Jhereg war
in /Yendi/ or a possible wave of bank failures in /Orca/.

> It's a very different thing from Morrolan's and Fornia's war.

True, but it's still violence that the Empire doesn't care about.
...

Jerry Friedman


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