[Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions

[Jon%20Lincicum]

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> 
To: "Dragaera" <dragaera at dragaera.info> 
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:00:57 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific 
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions 

> 
> 
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote: 
> 
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>> 
>> and a bit more spoiler space... 
>> 
>> 

>> Crime is always going to exist, and it's far better to have criminals in 
>> an organization that is subject to some degree of control than one that 
>> is completely unrestrained. You can argue the relative effectiveness of 
>> the degree to which this control has been exercised by the Empire, but 
>> the alternatives to the existence of the Jhereg appear to be far less 
>> pleasant ones. 
> 
>I don't really understand this. In Western societies at least we don't 
>say, "Organized crime is better than unorganized crime - we should force 
>every criminal to join the Mafia". 

Perhaps Dragaerans are smarter about such things. We have had efforts to disrupt the mafia in this country (such as the attempt to keep them off the west coast in the 50's and 60's, or the efforts against them by RFK), and not only have these efforts been largely unsuccessful, but the alternative criminal organizations that have sprung up, such as the street gangs of LA, are arguably worse than the mafia would have been. The traditional mafia tends to discourage violence in day to day activities; it's generally bad for business. Things can still get out of hand, of course, but at least you know where to find the people responsible when there is an "incident". 

And I don't think it's fair to say anyone is forcing criminals to join the Mafia--just like no one is forcing anyone to join the Jhereg Organization. Of course, if you set up as a freelance criminal in either situation, and start cutting into the profits of the big boys, you're likely to get squashed. 

>My claim was that "dismantle" wasn't fair - I'm proposing Zerika say, 
>"Anyone responsible for assassinating Vlad will go the same way." 

That's assuming you could prove they *were* responsible. Jhereg assassins are good about avoiding leaving enough evidence to link them to such crimes. 

Zerika did tell Vlad she'd made some threats, but that she lacked the political ability to carry them out... And she suspects the Jhereg knew this. Practical upshot--she has indeed done what you are suggesting, it just isn't likely to make any real difference to Vlad's situation. 

>> There's all kinds of spin to this. Certainly, the House of Dragon would 
>> be more likely to support Vlad than the other Houses, and being near the 
>> top of the Cycle, they are powerful right now. But so are the Athyra, 
>> Lyorn, Jhegaala, Hawk, and Tiassa. Why should those Houses be behind a 
>> single Jhereg assassin (who also happens to be an Easterner) who has 
>> done nothing but stir up trouble? 
> 
> 
> 
>And "done nothing but stir up trouble" is just silly. He's single- 
>handedly stopped a Dragon/Jhereg war and prevented a big stain on 
>the Dzur's honor. He's returned from the Paths with Aliera's body. 
>He has the favor of a goddess. He stopped a war. He was instrumental 
>in straightening out a bad situation in the ghetto. He helped prevent a 
>financial mess from getting worse. He helped kill a Jenoine and stop an 
>invasion. He just single-handedly extricated the Empire from a mess. 

I am curious just how much of any of this is really common knowledge? 

Certainly the Dzur would not have shared details about the Mellar situation with anyone, so likely only a few high-level Dzur even know of this, and they'd likely never admit it to anyone. 

Stopping the Jhereg/Dragon war: would only have mattered to the Jhereg and Dragons; the other Houses might have actually been in favor of it, as it would have greatly weakened both houses. The Jhereg want Vlad dead for other reasons, and the Dragon already supported him anyway, so no change on that count. 

Returning with Aliera from the paths: again, only matters to the Dragon (and likely the results of this have pissed off a number of them, also). Why is returning Adron e'Kieron's daughter to life likely to be seen as a *good* thing to most of the other Houses? 

Stopped a war with Greenaere/Elde: How many people know that he really did this? As I recall, in /Phoenix/, his title was given to him due to "services rendered to The Empire". How many people know the specifics of this? 

Instrumental in straightening out a bad situation in the Ghetto: I'd say the Phoenix Guard did a lot more to straighten this out than what Vlad did. At least, that anyone else is likely to know about. 

Killed a Jenoine: Sure, he saved the world from subjugation by legendary beings with the powers of the gods. Good one. Who told you that? Sethra Lavode? (Point being, who is likely to believe such a wild-eyed tale? In any case, the threat is over now, so what do they care?) 

Basically, while *we* know Vlad is doing all these things (assuming he's not just spinning yarns to his readers, that is), the actual public account and awareness of his life is hardly the stuff of celebrity. To the vast majority of the popultion, he's just some nameless Easterner who is interesting only in that he actually has a title, knows some powerful friends, and goes around with a jhereg on each shoulder. 

>> prostitution, and other nasty things? Sure, he helped avert a war--but 
>> it *was* a war that he himself started. 
> 
>The latter part isn't known. 

Well, neither is the former. See above. 

>> 
>> The Jhereg may be a hated House; but they *are* a House. 
> 
>Are they? Zerika has iirc explicitly said that's a legal fiction. 
>They're certainly not a house like the Lyorn are, or even the Yendi. 

That's precisely the point. It's the kind of legal fiction that the Houses are going to bend over backwards to maintain. Like the fiction that all the Houses have an equal say in government. 

>> Any move against them by the Empire, or by any small plurality of other 
>> Houses, is likely to be seen as a political threat to the remaining 
>> ones. 
> 
>Seems to me the Empire gets to say, You can try to stir up riots among 
>the Teckla, you can kill amongst yourselves, but you can't touch my agent 
>without those responsible sharing the same fate. 

Sure. Zerika can say that. Good luck enforcing it. 

>> I can't imagine that Vlad is held in very high regard, outside his small 
>> group of friends. As powerful as those friends may be, there aren't 
>> really that many of them compared to the rest of the population of The 
>> Empire. 
> 
>The population of the empire consists of Teckla and Easterners, who are 
>surely pro-Vlad here, and merchants who compete with the Jhereg at best, 
>and noble houses that Vlad has either signally helped or that should be 
>aware of those acts, and the Jhereg and Orca. 

Which Easterners and Teckla support Vlad, exactly? Of those that know him, say, for example Paresh or Kelly, how well disposed to him do they seem to be? 

Majikjon