[Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions

[Alexx Kay]

>
>
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote:
>
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>>
>> and a bit more spoiler space...
>>
>>
>
> Incidentally, no doubt well-merited acknowledgement,

(bows)

> even if I'm not
> clear how much timeline crosschecking was needed in this case.

I shall merely say that some inconsistencies in the draft I reviewed were
no longer present in the published text.  It is, of course, difficult to
see things that are no longer there :)

>>>  Are the Jhereg actually useful to the Empire at the moment?
>>
>> There are many ways to parse this question.  Are they performing more
>> good
>> than evil?  Dubious.  Are they *necessary* to maintain the Empire.
>> Arguably yes.
>
> What is that argument again?

A) Practical: Crime is an inherent part of human (and Dragaeran) society. 
having it be at least somewhat formalized and under Imperial jurisdiction
is better than the alternative.

B) Tradition: They've been around since the beginning of the Empire.  If
the Empire is to override such an old tradition, what traditions remain
sacred?

C) Mystical: They're part of the Cycle.

I don't claim that any of these reasons is unassailable -- that's why I
used the word 'arguable'.

>>> doesn't call in the Jhereg and say, "Vlad will die of being an
>>> Easterner soon enough, in the meantime if any of you kill him every
>>> single Jhereg will testify under the Orb that they weren't involved and
>>> any who are will be handed over to Vlad's friends."
>>
>> Are you, by chance, an American?
>
> Are you, by any chance, familiar with the state of the Cycle?

All the Houses are vividly aware that it *is* a Cycle -- and that they
will spend their own time at the bottom of it.  This would make them, I
think, very reluctant to allow such a precedent.

>>  At the moment, our central Federal
>> government is extremely strong, and the relative power of the State
>> governments are weaker than ever.  In Dragaera, the situation is very
>> different.  The Houses appear to have (collectively) more power than the
>> Imperium.  This is probably even more true than usual during Zerika's
>> reign, since she doesn't really *have* a House to back her up.
>
> Zerika has the gods,

Some of the gods support her under some circumstances.  We have evidence
that the gods have a degree of loyalty to the Empire -- but not
necessarily to the Empress, personally, nor to any specific policy of
hers.  Nor are the gods monolithic, they have factions and disagreements,
too.

>Sethra Lavode

Again, loyal to the Empire, not the person in charge.  She's clashed with
Emperors in the past.

>and all of the top Dragons,

All of whom have very strained relationships with her as of _Iorich_, and
most of whom have shown willingness to defy her when it suits them.

>and the
> traditional hatred of the Jhereg on her side.

A valid point, but not, I think, a dominant one.

>I can well imagine her
> asking Khaavren

Who has resigned from her service multiple time to express his extreme
displeasure with her decisions.

>to bring in the Tiassa representative and ask her how the
> prophets in the house feel about allowing Vlad to be killed.

I take issue with this phrase "allowing Vlad to be killed".  One of the
fundamental laws of assassination (as presented in these books) is that,
in the long term, it *cannot* be prevented.  She can (indeed, has) attempt
to exert political pressure, but she can't actually stop them from
eventually succeeding.

The question we've been debating is not "should she prevent Vlad's
assassination" but "how should she *respond* to Vlad's assassination". 
Investigating is certainly called for, and if she catches the assassin (or
even a reasonable patsy), she's allowed to execute him.  Harrassing and
humiliating the entire *House* is another matter entirely.

>Ditto the
> Lyorn representative, who she put in place if I recall - how is he going
> to react to the Empire not allowing the Jhereg to use an illegal weapon on
> someone with an Imperial title

The Lyorn would want there to be a traditional investigation to such an
event.  NOT an unprecedented assault on the rights and dignities of an
Imperial House.

And again, I take issue with "allowing".

>(ok, he's an Easterner, but at least he's
> not sleeping with one)?

Actually, they would have no problem with Vlad sleeping with his own kind.
 His recent love affair with a *Dragaeran* might well reduce their
sympathy for him.

>Are the Dzur going to back the Jhereg
> against a lone hero, who they hate preciesly for his heroism?  They're
> going to screw the person who rode off a cliff for her convictions (on
> behalf of someone who climbed down that cliff to help save someone he had
> never met)?

Valid points.  To the left, Dzur care a lot about their public image, and
the precedent of humiliating an entire House would trouble them.

>And is now going up against the CW?

CW?  I miss the reference.

>And perhaps you've
> forgotten Mellar, but they surely haven't.

I am unconvinced of which way that memory would incline them to act.

>> If Zerika were to do as you suggest, not only would the Jhereg scream
>> (and
>> likely perform) bloody murder, but every other House would see it as a
>> completely unacceptable precedent.  Given the haughtiness and pride of
>> the
>> Dragons, it is almost inevitable that they would see this as proof the
>> Cycle had turned
>
> Here I think you've got the sign wrong (that or A, M, and N aren't running
> the house and whoever is doesn't mind setting a precedent that the Jhereg
> get to have things their way)

I don't know that A, M, and N would necessarily lead or join such a
movement within the House.  But I am dead certain that such a movement
would form within the House.  If the current heads didn't cooperate, there
would be attempts to replace them.

>but if not, how is this an argument that
> would or should sway Zerika?  If she's not running the Empire - if she
> can't protect the guy who's saved her bacon three or four times in the
> last few years - it's probably time for a change.

You seem, again, to equate 'running the empire' with 'absolute power'. 
Let me quote Zerika, from _Phoenix_: "The Emperor, Baronet Taltos, has
never, in all our long history, ruled the Empire, save now and again, for
a few moments only, such as Korotta the Sixth between the destruction of
the Barons of the North and the arrival of the Embassy of Duke Tinaan. ...
When there is famine in the north, the fishermen in the south rule. When
the mines and forges in the west are producing, the transport barons rule.
When the Easterners are threatening our borders, the armies in the east
rule. Do you mean politically? Even that isn't as simple as you think. At
the beginning of our history, no one ruled. Later it was each House,
through its Heir, which ruled each House. Then it became the nobles of all
the Houses. For a brief time, at the end of the last Cycle, the Emperor
did, indeed, rule, but that was short-lived, and he was brought down by
assassination, conspiracy, and his own foolishness."

Zerika seems to honestly want to serve the Empire to the best of her
ability.  That doesn't involve pushing the limits of her power in a way
that could easily lead to civil war.  She wants to (and apparently,
eventually does) do as much good as she can, for as long as she can, then
hand over power in an orderly fashion.

>> and they would probably get support from several other Houses.  Lyorn
>> and Dzur for sure, possibly even Iorich (since this would be a big
>> breach of normal applications of justice).
>
> Whereas allowing the Jhereg to use an illegal weapon with impunity on
> someone with an Imperial title is normal justice?

There's a *wide* gap between "with impunity" and "round them *all* up." 
Neither is normal justice.

>> If Zerika were to resist, a coup and/or civil war would be very likely.
>
> As noted above the first consequence isn't convincing, and the latter
> seems very arguable to me - and do the events of _Iorich_ make that much
> less likely regardless?

The events of _Iorich_, as discussed in the epilogue, lead to some civil
unrest.  That type of civil unrest is clearly a major issue of Zerika's
government at this time -- but is entirely centered in the lowest classes
of society, and highly unlikely to lead to outright civil war.

Your proposal (I argue), would lead to a revolt on the *highest* levels of
society, a different matter entirely.

Alexx

"Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something."
    -- THE PRINCESS BRIDE