[Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions

[Philip Hart]

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Jon%20Lincicum wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
> To: "Dragaera" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 10:05:40 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions
>
>
>
> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote:
>
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>>
>> and a bit more spoiler space...
>>
>>

> Crime is always going to exist, and it's far better to have criminals in 
> an organization that is subject to some degree of control than one that 
> is completely unrestrained. You can argue the relative effectiveness of 
> the degree to which this control has been exercised by the Empire, but 
> the alternatives to the existence of the Jhereg appear to be far less 
> pleasant ones.

I don't really understand this.  In Western societies at least we don't 
say, "Organized crime is better than unorganized crime - we should force 
every criminal to join the Mafia".


>>> Would any attempt to dismantle them have huge negative consequences?
>>> Absolutely.
>>
>> Straw/begs the question.
>
> I don't know. Seems pretty obvious to me. Straw man argument it may be, 
> but it seems like a logical enough fact that attempting to dismantle a 
> large, powerful criminal organization would result in many deaths, 
> increased political instability, destruction of property, &c &c. 
> Espcially since this would apparently run counter to the incluence of 
> the Cycle.

My claim was that "dismantle" wasn't fair - I'm proposing Zerika say, 
"Anyone responsible for assassinating Vlad will go the same way."

[...]
> There's all kinds of spin to this. Certainly, the House of Dragon would 
> be more likely to support Vlad than the other Houses, and being near the 
> top of the Cycle, they are powerful right now. But so are the Athyra, 
> Lyorn, Jhegaala, Hawk, and Tiassa. Why should those Houses be behind a 
> single Jhereg assassin (who also happens to be an Easterner) who has 
> done nothing but stir up trouble?

The Tiassa I touched on above - prophecy.  The Lyorn ditto - Jhereg, 
Morganti weapon, Imperial title.   The Hawk - do they really care?  The 
Athyra owe Zerika for the Orb, and maybe they're not eager to see the 
Cycle turn against them.  Ditto the Jhegaala, who haven't seemed very 
influential lately.

And "done nothing but stir up trouble" is just silly.  He's single-
handedly stopped a Dragon/Jhereg war and prevented a big stain on 
the Dzur's honor.  He's returned from the Paths with Aliera's body. 
He has the favor of a goddess.  He stopped a war.  He was instrumental 
in straightening out a bad situation in the ghetto.  He helped prevent a 
financial mess from getting worse.  He helped kill a Jenoine and stop an 
invasion.  He just single-handedly extricated the Empire from a mess.


> prostitution, and other nasty things? Sure, he helped avert a war--but 
> it *was* a war that he himself started.

The latter part isn't known.

>
> The Jhereg may be a hated House; but they *are* a House.

Are they?  Zerika has iirc explicitly said that's a legal fiction. 
They're certainly not a house like the Lyorn are, or even the Yendi.

> Any move against them by the Empire, or by any small plurality of other 
> Houses, is likely to be seen as a political threat to the remaining 
> ones.

Seems to me the Empire gets to say, You can try to stir up riots among 
the Teckla, you can kill amongst yourselves, but you can't touch my agent 
without those responsible sharing the same fate.


> I can't imagine that Vlad is held in very high regard, outside his small 
> group of friends. As powerful as those friends may be, there aren't 
> really that many of them compared to the rest of the population of The 
> Empire.

The population of the empire consists of Teckla and Easterners, who are 
surely pro-Vlad here, and merchants who compete with the Jhereg at best, 
and noble houses that Vlad has either signally helped or that should be 
aware of those acts, and the Jhereg and Orca.


>>> and they would probably get support from several other Houses. Lyorn
>>> and Dzur for sure, possibly even Iorich (since this would be a big
>>> breach of normal applications of justice).
>>
>> Whereas allowing the Jhereg to use an illegal weapon with impunity on
>> someone with an Imperial title is normal justice?
>
> Perhaps not normal justice; but likely less objectionable than the 
> alternative of allowing the Houses of Dragon, Dzur, Lyorn and Phoenix to 
> run roughshod over the interests of the other Houses.

The guys at the bottom of the Cycle are trying a power play that could 
light up the world, that has already seriously messed with internal Dragon 
politics and honor, and the other houses care about the Empire telling the 
most hated house not to commit a crime against her apparently sole 
effective agent?