[Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions

[Alexx Kay]

>
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> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote:
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>>> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote:
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>>>> and a bit more spoiler space...
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>>

>> Some of the gods support her under some circumstances.  We have evidence
>> that the gods have a degree of loyalty to the Empire -- but not
>> necessarily to the Empress, personally, nor to any specific policy of
>> hers.  Nor are the gods monolithic, they have factions and
>> disagreements,
>> too.
>
> I'm not seeing this in Paarfi at least post-interregnum.  Esp. since we're
> talking about Zerika protecting Vlad.

Verra and Barlen are seen arguing in _Taltos_.

>>> to bring in the Tiassa representative and ask her how the
>>> prophets in the house feel about allowing Vlad to be killed.
>>
>> I take issue with this phrase "allowing Vlad to be killed".  One of the
>> fundamental laws of assassination (as presented in these books) is that,
>> in the long term, it *cannot* be prevented.  She can (indeed, has)
>> attempt
>> to exert political pressure, but she can't actually stop them from
>> eventually succeeding.
>
> Ok, maybe here's a nexus of disagreement.

Yep.

>Afaict Zerika is doing nothing
> to protect Vlad - well, she does ask Laszlo to help at this late date, but
> as Empress she's not raising a finger.  That's "allowing" to me.  It may
> be a hopeless case (which I don't believe) but she could try.

She *does* try, to the best of her ability.  Paraphrasing from memory: "I
made threats, but they know I can't carry them out."

>> The question we've been debating is not "should she prevent Vlad's
>> assassination" but "how should she *respond* to Vlad's assassination".
>> Investigating is certainly called for, and if she catches the assassin
>> (or
>> even a reasonable patsy), she's allowed to execute him.  Harrassing and
>> humiliating the entire *House* is another matter entirely.
>
> I'm not saying she should do anything now except threaten the council, and
> I suppose the LH.  For that matter she can just remind them of the law,
> and remind them who Vlad's friends are and which side she and the Orb and
> the Phoenix guard and the army will take.

And then?  Do you think that would actually have any effect on Jhereg policy?

>> The Lyorn would want there to be a traditional investigation to such an
>> event.
>
> I wouldn't be surprised if this is traditional.  Zerika's predecessor
> apparently was willing to act as judge, jury, and DA while not allowing
> free testimony by the accused, and I don't recall anyone raising a peep.

Interrogating specific suspects/witnesses in that fashion is, undeniably,
traditional.  Arresting and interrogating an *entire House* is something
rather different.  "Quantity has a quality all its own."

>>> And perhaps you've forgotten Mellar, but they surely haven't.
>>
>> I am unconvinced of which way that memory would incline them to act.
>
> Against their honor?  Do we have precedent?

Some, though perhaps weak.  The first Dzur we ever meet, back in _Jhereg_,
is quite willing to take actions which are, in a real sense, dishonorable,
in order to preserve the public *appearance* of his honor.  And Vlad's
narrative wisecracks at the incident suggest that this is a fairly common
pattern among Dzur (or at least, Dzur who ever interact with Jhereg).

>> I don't know that A, M, and N would necessarily lead or join such a
>> movement within the House.  But I am dead certain that such a movement
>> would form within the House.  If the current heads didn't cooperate,
>> there
>> would be attempts to replace them.
>
> Still seems to me that House Dragon doesn't exactly care much about what's
> good for the Jhereg, esp. after they got Aliera jailed.  How's that for a
> precedent?  They should be taking out the head of the council right now.

Yeah, 'cause Dragons deciding that their offended pride requires killing
Jhereg assassins *always* ends so well, historically.

> I can't see the top people backed by Sethra not keeping the
> pressure off for Vlad's natural lifetime, at worst.

How?  Sethra threatens, the Council (publically) submit, then they
privately go on with exactly what they were doing before.  *No*
assassination is officially 'permitted'.  I don't see how threats would
convince the Council to back down in anything but name.

> I'm not claiming she had absolute power - I think she gets to say, Go
> about your business but you can't have x, I need him.

Which she more-or-less did.  And, rightly, expects that that won't work.

> If she's been paying attention lately, Vlad is infinitely more useful to
> the Empire than the leadership of the Jhereg, which has in the last few
> years been willing twice at least to start a civil war itself.

peasant unrest != civil war.  On rare occasions, there is a causal
connection between the two, but not usually.

Alexx

"The book suffers from numerous flaws, not the least of which is that
 the "alien" planet appears to be Manitoba with air pollution, right
 down to the names of the local species. Most authors who indulge in
 Smeerp-style world building at least put antennae on their rabbits."
                  -- James Nicoll