[Dragaera] REMOVE ME FROM MAILING LIST
Vilmann, RuthEllen
Ruth-Ellen.M.Vilmann at snapon.com
Tue Jan 26 12:58:14 PST 2010
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Subject: Dragaera Digest, Vol 42, Issue 22
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Today's Topics:
1. Athyra on jhereg color (Damien Sullivan)
2. Re: Athyra on jhereg color (Philip Hart)
3. Re: Sleep cycles (Maximilian Wilson)
4. Re: Iorich -- It's the small stuff *no spoilers*
(Maximilian Wilson)
5. Re: Iorich -- It's the small stuff *no spoilers* (Philip Hart)
6. Re: _Iorich_ plot criticism (spoilers!) (Maximilian Wilson)
7. Re: _Iorich_ plot criticism (spoilers!) (Maximilian Wilson)
8. Re: Athyra on jhereg color (Damien Sullivan)
9. Re: Athyra on jhereg color (Philip Hart)
10. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Philip Hart)
11. Re: Athyra on jhereg color (Alexx Kay)
12. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Alexx Kay)
13. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Howard Brazee)
14. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Jon%20Lincicum)
15. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Alexx Kay)
16. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Scott Schultz)
17. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (David Dyer-Bennet)
18. Vlad and Aliera - Inextricably linked? (Scott Schultz)
19. Re: Vlad and Aliera - Inextricably linked? (Steve Rapaport)
20. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Philip Hart)
21. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Ray Lee)
22. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Philip Hart)
23. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Philip Hart)
24. Re: _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!) (Philip Hart)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:41:21 -0800
From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: [Dragaera] Athyra on jhereg color
Message-ID: <20100125214121.GA2624 at ofb.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
Old news maybe, but I started re-reading Athyra, and for the first time
that I recall noticed Savn noticing the colors of the jhereg, and
speculating how they'd change with the seasons. I don't know if Vlad
ever mentioned colors, let alone changes...
-xx- Damien X-)
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 13:44:08 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Athyra on jhereg color
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001251342250.12479 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Damien Sullivan wrote:
> Old news maybe, but I started re-reading Athyra, and for the first
time
> that I recall noticed Savn noticing the colors of the jhereg, and
> speculating how they'd change with the seasons. I don't know if Vlad
> ever mentioned colors, let alone changes...
I wonder if Dragaerans see deeper into the infrared, or higher into the
ultraviolet, than humans. Compare the way flowers look to bees.
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:03:07 -0800
From: Maximilian Wilson <wilson.max at gmail.com>
To: Dusty Sayers <dusty at sayersnet.com>
Cc: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Sleep cycles
Message-ID:
<2ddbda5f1001251703r2dedff0dg4c96d4c9d01811c9 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 8:16 PM, Dusty Sayers <dusty at sayersnet.com>
wrote:
> Vlad mentions at least once, I and think more than once, that Cawti
likes
> naps (she feels like naps the way a cat does) while he rarely takes
them,
> and usually feels groggy after he does (but in one book--I think
> Jhegaala--he takes a nap and wakes up refreshed).
/Iorich/ spoiler.
1
2
3
4
5
6
7
8
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
26
27
28
29
30
31
32
33
34
Vlad falls asleep in Perisil's office and has a "vaguely disturbing
dream" there.
-Max
--
"When people are married, instead of trying to get rid of each other,
reflect that you have made your choice, and strive to honour and keep
it." --Brigham Young
If you're so evil, eat this kitten!
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:05:49 -0800
From: Maximilian Wilson <wilson.max at gmail.com>
To: Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner at tx.rr.com>
Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Iorich -- It's the small stuff *no spoilers*
Message-ID:
<2ddbda5f1001251705x51ff0ccahcdd678b4cfcb0cb4 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Konrad Gaertner <kgaertner at tx.rr.com>
wrote:
> Scott Schultz wrote:
>>
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 4
>> 5
>> 6
>> 7
>> 8
>> 9
>> 0
>> 1
>> 2
>> 3
>> 4
>> 5
>> 6
>> 7
>> 8
>> 9
>> 0
>>
>> I liked this story quite a bit. Jhegalla was okay, but the whole
torture
>> thing...
>
> Well yes, you're not supposed to enjoy the torture, and I'm sure
> _Jhegaala_ (like _Teckla_) won't get reread nearly as often as the
> other Vlad books. ?Still, its nice to see an author take a stand
> and show that not only is torture wrong, It Doesn't Work.
Showing Doesn't Work would have required Vlad to know something.
Jhegaala just showed that torture Was Superfluous.
-Max
--
"When people are married, instead of trying to get rid of each other,
reflect that you have made your choice, and strive to honour and keep
it." --Brigham Young
If you're so evil, eat this kitten!
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:11:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Iorich -- It's the small stuff *no spoilers*
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001251707100.12479 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"; Format="flowed"
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Maximilian Wilson wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 12:54 PM, Konrad Gaertner
<kgaertner at tx.rr.com> wrote:
>> Scott Schultz wrote:
>>>
>>> 1
>>> 2
>>> 3
>>> 4
>>> 5
>>> 6
>>> 7
>>> 8
>>> 9
>>> 0
>>> 1
>>> 2
>>> 3
>>> 4
>>> 5
>>> 6
>>> 7
>>> 8
>>> 9
>>> 0
>>>
>> other Vlad books. ?Still, its nice to see an author take a stand
>> and show that not only is torture wrong, It Doesn't Work.
>
> Showing Doesn't Work would have required Vlad to know something.
> Jhegaala just showed that torture Was Superfluous.
It still wouldn't show anything, in the sense of "prove". The scene
does
remind those in the Works camp about the moral risk that the client is
ignorant.
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:12:19 -0800
From: Maximilian Wilson <wilson.max at gmail.com>
To: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
Cc: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info, Dragaera Mailing List
<dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ plot criticism (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<2ddbda5f1001251712h28b4d6d1x72110e26f2486ddc at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 03:46:38PM -0600, Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>> Alexx Kay wrote:
>> >
>> > loads of spoilers below
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> Oooooh.... I like this. ?Also, Vlad now thinks he might have a way
>> to get the Jhereg off his back. ?Maybe he's looking for a way to
>> use the financial mess to put himself in a position where his death
>> would cause more harm to the Jhereg than his continued existence?
>
> Oh, the Mellar-Dzur strategy, applied to the Jhereg. ?Nice.
Is that irony, Damien? The Jhereg showed pretty conclusively with
Mellar that a little short-term financial ruin is less concern to them
than the long-term destruction of their business model. I.e. no amount
of financial damage is worth the permanent loss of face of letting
someone get away with ripping them off.
-Max
--
"When people are married, instead of trying to get rid of each other,
reflect that you have made your choice, and strive to honour and keep
it." --Brigham Young
If you're so evil, eat this kitten!
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 17:12:19 -0800
From: Maximilian Wilson <wilson.max at gmail.com>
To: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
Cc: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info, Dragaera Mailing List
<dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ plot criticism (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<2ddbda5f1001251712h28b4d6d1x72110e26f2486ddc at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 4:58 PM, Damien Sullivan
<phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu> wrote:
> On Sun, Jan 24, 2010 at 03:46:38PM -0600, Konrad Gaertner wrote:
>> Alexx Kay wrote:
>> >
>> > loads of spoilers below
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> > .
>> Oooooh.... I like this. ?Also, Vlad now thinks he might have a way
>> to get the Jhereg off his back. ?Maybe he's looking for a way to
>> use the financial mess to put himself in a position where his death
>> would cause more harm to the Jhereg than his continued existence?
>
> Oh, the Mellar-Dzur strategy, applied to the Jhereg. ?Nice.
Is that irony, Damien? The Jhereg showed pretty conclusively with
Mellar that a little short-term financial ruin is less concern to them
than the long-term destruction of their business model. I.e. no amount
of financial damage is worth the permanent loss of face of letting
someone get away with ripping them off.
-Max
--
"When people are married, instead of trying to get rid of each other,
reflect that you have made your choice, and strive to honour and keep
it." --Brigham Young
If you're so evil, eat this kitten!
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:28:10 -0800
From: Damien Sullivan <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Athyra on jhereg color
Message-ID: <20100126062810.GA15123 at ofb.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
More Athyra:
that Vlad seems less funny talking to a peasant isn't surprising.
The Vlad talks so much about magic and philosophy is more surprising.
There's a lot of his life we miss.
Even more surprising is the magic he does. Spell on Savn, and his
parents; light spell in the caves; teleport. Never mind the casual mind
control magic... he's being pretty willing to take the Phoenix stones
off, and usually doing it without being noticed.
-xx- Damien X-)
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 22:47:28 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Athyra on jhereg color
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252245220.14675 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Mon, 25 Jan 2010, Damien Sullivan wrote:
> control magic... he's being pretty willing to take the Phoenix stones
> off, and usually doing it without being noticed.
Perhaps thinks that he's not being scanned for so much after this much
time (human scales), and doesn't plan to stay around long. Presumably
he
learns his lesson (again).
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 23:35:47 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: Dragaera Mailing List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001252248040.14675 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
a
b
c
d
e
f
g
h
i
j
k
l
m
n
o
p
q
Hmm, do we know how many letters there are in the Dragaeran alphabet?
Some random brief comments:
Pg. 15: Fill in the blank. I wonder if we're meant to be able to guess
what comment Vlad answers - something like, "Easterners with jheregs are
!$!#$@#$%s" I guess.
Water transport - why bother, when teleportation is so easy? Maybe it's
still practical to move heavy loads by river somehow?
Pg. 26 - "Given what the ugly thing is famous for" - what's this?
I imagine that the symbolism of looking over one's shoulder involves not
forgetting about the past, that is, working for justice.
There are dolphins on Dragaera? And no extant house? Kind of too bad.
Pg. 28 - "white yarn" - interesting low tech here. Record-keeping must
be
such a nightmare on Dragaeran time scales.
Pg. 29 - "House?" "Imperial." - This is the sort of thing that led me
to
keep emphasizing that Vlad has an imperial title and as such a good
claim
on independence from the Jhereg, which is anyway something of a fiction
on
several counts.
Pg. 30 - Courtyard - did any of us think about this?
Pg. 33 - "How do you know so much about this stuff, Vlad?" - Vlad has
Morrolan speak in varying degrees of formality in different places.
Pg. 39 - how is Vlad positioned to harass Lady Ardema?
Pg. 45 - Capital punishment - we've been told before that Zerika, as a
reborn Phoenix, doesn't go for this.
Pg. 49 - Here Vlad says "Jhereg" and not "Imperial", interestingly.
Pg. 54 - 'Care to say that under the Orb?' Did Zerika say something
equivalent (and intensely impolite) to Khaavren during the problem with
Pel? It seems familiar.
Pg. 60 - "and do you mind of [sic] if I study you for a while" - Is this
really something a Hawklord would say? When we first meet Daymar he
doesn't bother with niceties like that.
Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
formulation - no one else can touch Pathfinder, for one thing. Also,
I'm
just reading "Flying Colours", and H.H. is allowed to be armed while
under
arrest. And Aliera is able to make amorphia, it's silly to disarm her.
Pg. 91 - "my sword", "nobleman". It took me a second to realize what
clues Poncer in. But:
Pg. 99 - "just how noble I was", "I dared to wear a sword openly" - this
sort of spoils the effect for me.
Pg. 113/4 In Dragaeran "Hawk" is something like "raptor", of which there
are various sorts named in Fenarian. It's odd to have a house named
after something vague.
Pg. 116 - "I've asked myself the same question" - I'm still asking
that...
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:16:30 -0500
From: "Alexx Kay" <alexx at panix.com>
To: "Damien Sullivan" <phoenix at ugcs.caltech.edu>
Cc: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Athyra on jhereg color
Message-ID: <47c5b0899109658116f0e1967c452011.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> Even more surprising is the magic he does. Spell on Savn, and his
> parents; light spell in the caves; teleport. Never mind the casual
mind
> control magic... he's being pretty willing to take the Phoenix stones
> off, and usually doing it without being noticed.
This leaped out at me the last time I read it. After careful analysis,
I
came to the conclusion that Vlad must have gotten hold of (or at least
believed he had gotten hold of) a potent protection other than the
amulet.
Subsequently, he must have abandoned this method, though there isn't
enough information to know exactly when or why. (Or even what it was in
the first place.)
Alexx
"A successful tool is one that was used to do something
undreamed of by its author."
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:42:19 -0500
From: "Alexx Kay" <alexx at panix.com>
To: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
Cc: Dragaera Mailing List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID: <e8a5adf1d5f79252bc71d41bc68a5aed.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
> a
> b
> c
> d
> e
> f
> g
> h
> i
> j
> k
> l
> m
> n
> o
> p
> q
>
>
> Hmm, do we know how many letters there are in the Dragaeran alphabet?
Nope. We do know that some of the House languages use different symbols
than the primary language.
> Some random brief comments:
> Water transport - why bother, when teleportation is so easy? Maybe
it's
> still practical to move heavy loads by river somehow?
Teleportation is 'easy' to highly-trained sorcerers. Vlad finds it
difficult, and a lot of Dragaerans can't do it at all.
Also, most of the teleportation we've seen has been of sentient beings
(and their personal effects). It's conceivable that teleporting
non-living matter is more difficult.
Lastly, transport by water is *astoundingly* cheap. If you haven't done
the research, you'd be amazed at how much cheaper than ground transport
it
is. Even in the modern world, with airports, freeways, and railroads,
shipping by water is very often the cheapest option.
> Pg. 26 - "Given what the ugly thing is famous for" - what's this?
Steven Brust being a tease, that's what :-)
> Pg. 28 - "white yarn" - interesting low tech here. Record-keeping
must be
> such a nightmare on Dragaeran time scales.
IIRC, it was established in _Dzur_ that there is a spell that lets one
do
the equivalent of 'grep' on a collection of paper texts. (Want!)
> Pg. 29 - "House?" "Imperial." - This is the sort of thing that led me
to
> keep emphasizing that Vlad has an imperial title and as such a good
claim
> on independence from the Jhereg, which is anyway something of a
fiction on
> several counts.
Note that he is still a Baronet of House Jhereg; the "Imperial House"
applies to his Count-ship. And he still self-identifies as a Jhereg.
> Pg. 39 - how is Vlad positioned to harass Lady Ardema?
A) Imperial title gives him a certain base amount of weight to throw
around.
B) He probably knows about some unethical behavior in her past that he
could potentially reveal. (Presumably implicating himself in the
process,
but he's been well-established as someone who won't let a little thing
like that stop him if he cares enough.)
> Pg. 45 - Capital punishment - we've been told before that Zerika, as a
> reborn Phoenix, doesn't go for this.
Not that I disagree, but do you happen to remember where we learn this?
I
know she's willing to do it under sufficient provocation (e.g Kana).
> Pg. 49 - Here Vlad says "Jhereg" and not "Imperial", interestingly.
As I said above, the "Imperial-House-ness" attaches to one specific
title,
not to the person as a whole.
> Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
> formulation - no one else can touch Pathfinder, for one thing.
Really? I mean, under most circumstances, it would be suicidally dumb,
but I don't recall anyone saying it's impossible.
>And Aliera is able to make amorphia, it's silly to disarm her.
Symbolism matters.
Also, a person might be willing to fight their way out of prison, where
they wouldn't be willing to use Elder Sorcery to destroy the prison.
Especially when what they're charged with in the first place is Elder
Sorcery...
(Hm. Given Pathfinder's special abilities, I expect that having it
might
let Aliera find the secret passage that (I presume) the Vallista
architect
must have put in :-)
(Hm further. Maybe that's where Zerika's plan went wrong; she hadn't
intended for Pathfinder to be taken away in the first place, but a
zealous
and/or finicky Iorich did so.)
> Pg. 113/4 In Dragaeran "Hawk" is something like "raptor", of which
there
> are various sorts named in Fenarian. It's odd to have a house named
> after something vague.
Perhaps in the language of House Hawk, there are finer distinctions.
Alexx
A ship is safe in a harbor, but that's not what a ship is for.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 08:53:53 -0700
From: Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID: <4B5F1011.7080900 at brazee.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/26/2010 8:42 AM, Alexx Kay wrote:
> Lastly, transport by water is*astoundingly* cheap. If you haven't
done
> the research, you'd be amazed at how much cheaper than ground
transport it
> is. Even in the modern world, with airports, freeways, and railroads,
> shipping by water is very often the cheapest option.
>
And their society isn't one that is designed around doing everything
quickly.
We forget how important water transportation is. In the U.S. we have a
few big cities that were developed after water transportation was king -
namely Dallas which was designed to use water transportation, but
missed, and Atlanta which was designed for the Atlantic Coast Line RR.
That's it.
Europe has the same coastline as Africa with half the land mass. With
mountains in between, it was hard to unify, and had lots of little
kingdoms that needed to give merchants concessions to get the money to
fight each other. These geographic influences were huge.
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 16:42:23 +0000 (UTC)
From: Jon%20Lincicum <lincicum at comcast.net>
To: Alexx Kay <alexx at panix.com>
Cc: Dragaera Mailing List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<985332430.14791531264524143554.JavaMail.root at sz0100a.emeryville.ca.mail
.comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
----- Original Message -----
From: "Alexx Kay" <alexx at panix.com>
To: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
Cc: "Dragaera Mailing List" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:42:19 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
> a
> b
> c
> d
> e
> f
> g
> h
> i
> j
> k
> l
> m
> n
> o
> p
> q
>
>
>> Hmm, do we know how many letters there are in the Dragaeran alphabet?
>
>Nope. We do know that some of the House languages use different symbols
>than the primary language.
I thought this comment in /Iorich/ was just a lawyer joke.
It's not that they use different /symbols/ so much as that
advocate-speak is a different /language/. Vlad was just being facetious
with this comment, IMO.
Majikjon
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:20:08 -0500
From: "Alexx Kay" <alexx at panix.com>
To: "Jon%20Lincicum" <lincicum at comcast.net>
Cc: Dragaera Mailing List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID: <6474fd917f90f884b8a819fd2688f888.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Alexx Kay" <alexx at panix.com>
> To: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
> Cc: "Dragaera Mailing List" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
> Sent: Tuesday, January 26, 2010 7:42:19 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada
Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
>
>> a
>> b
>> c
>> d
>> e
>> f
>> g
>> h
>> i
>> j
>> k
>> l
>> m
>> n
>> o
>> p
>> q
>>
>>
>>> Hmm, do we know how many letters there are in the Dragaeran
alphabet?
>>
>>Nope. We do know that some of the House languages use different
symbols
>>than the primary language.
>
> I thought this comment in /Iorich/ was just a lawyer joke.
>
> It's not that they use different /symbols/ so much as that
advocate-speak
> is a different /language/. Vlad was just being facetious with this
> comment, IMO.
Possible, though not the way I read it. The use of the word 'symbols'
seemed more literal than metaphoric to me. But then, I have missed
plenty
of Vlad's jokes in the past. For instance, when he tells Teldra in
_Issola_ that he has never dealt with an advocate, I took him at his
word
:-)
Alexx
"Live TV died in the late 1950s, electronic bulletin boards came
along in the mid-1980s, meaning there was about a 25-year gap when
it was difficult to put your foot in your mouth and have people all
across the country know about it." -- Mark Leeper
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 09:31:23 -0800
From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
To: "Dragaera Mailing List" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID: <B07B9A876847415EB0CD564684888735 at MAGNUM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=response
>From: Philip Hart Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:35 PM
>To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief
>comments (spoilers!)
a
b
c
d
e
f
g
h
i
j
k
l
m
n
o
p
q
>Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
>formulation - no one else can touch Pathfinder, for one thing. Also,
I'm
>just reading "Flying Colours", and H.H. is allowed to be armed while
under
>arrest. And Aliera is able to make amorphia, it's silly to disarm her.
Part what's going on here is that Aliera is participating in her own
incarceration. She's allowed herself to be arrested and she's allowing
herself to be tried, judged, and even killed if it comes to that.
Pathfinder
may have been "taken" but it's only because she gave it up willingly.
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:10:40 -0600
From: David Dyer-Bennet <dd-b at dd-b.net>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID: <4B5F3020.7060105 at dd-b.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 1/26/2010 9:42 AM, Alexx Kay wrote:
>> Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
>> formulation - no one else can touch Pathfinder, for one thing.
>>
> Really? I mean, under most circumstances, it would be suicidally
dumb,
> but I don't recall anyone saying it's impossible.
>
I don't know how magic the sheaths are, or how thoroughly sheath-trained
the Great Weapons might be.
However, if I were assigned the job of arresting Aliera and removing
Pathfinder from her custody in this situation, I would approach it by
politely asking her to set Pathfinder aside and come with me. That might
be survivable, especially if she was expecting something like it.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, dd-b at dd-b.net; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 10:24:22 -0800
From: "Scott Schultz" <scott at cjhunter.com>
To: <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: [Dragaera] Vlad and Aliera - Inextricably linked?
Message-ID: <A71921EBD2EC48458B04B2ED8D58D9BC at MAGNUM>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset="iso-8859-1";
reply-type=original
It occurred to me that Vlad and Aliera may be linked closer than I'd
previously imagined.
They're "soul siblings".
Vlad plays multiple vital roles in Aliera's resurrection and release
from
the Paths.
Devera has an interest in both Vlad and Vlad Norathar.
When Aliera's life is threatened, Vlad comes riding in to the rescue.
Aliera has Pathfinder. Vlad has Godslayer. The two Great Weapons are
themselves linked at some metaphysical level, according to Morrolan's
Serioli friend. Paraphrased - "If one of the two weapons has made an
appearance, then the other tends to show up as well."
Vlad is instrumental in finding and releasing Pathfinder, as well as
putting
it into Aliera's hands. (Of course, there's also the implication that
Pathfinder was "looking for" Aliera all along.)
It's not a coincidence that Vlad has figured so prominently in key areas
of
Aliera's life post-Interregnum. (Not her daily life; we know little
about
that.)
I'm convinced that Vlad has not been randomly chosen to carry Godslayer.
Whether it's "fate" or the influence of the Lords of Judgement, there is
a
reason that a (relatively) short-lived Easterner with a karmic burden is
carrying the blade that can destroy a God. Whatever "The Final Contract"
(or
whatever it really turns out to be) is about, it seems likely that we're
going to see Pathfinder and Godslayer coming together to fulfill their
combined purpose. That necessarily implies that Aliera and Vlad are
going to
be sharing each other's fate at some level. Death for one or both is a
likely outcome, especially if the destruction or removal of one or both
of
their Great Weapons is involved.
One wonders what Vlad would do if he was faced with a crisis point, with
freedom to choose his action, and the knowledge that his entire life had
been manipulated towards one specific action, especially if that action
involved life and death for Aliera, Verra, or both?
One thing's for certain - as a tool of the Gods, knowingly or
unknowingly,
he's a loose cannon. Despite her claims on his loyalty and her
particular
brand of foreknowledge, even Verra would have a difficult time pushing
Vlad
to make a decision to do the "right" thing (meaning fulfulling his
appointed
destiny as opposed to saying "Frag it all"). Ironically, I think the one
person who might be able to help him to make the "best" choice as
opposed to
making the most annoyingly contrary, most pointlessly heroic, or most
self-serving choice would be Lady Teldra. It may be that she isn't going
to
awaken until Vlad is faced with a need for her guidance at the final
juncture.
Hmmm... Reading that last paragraph, I'm even pushed to speculate that
"The
Final Contract" will recap the theme of the entire series, with one
chapter
devoted to the theme of each House and Vlad behaving like the patron
animal
in each of the chapters.
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 18:27:04 +0000
From: Steve Rapaport <steve.rapaport at gmail.com>
To: Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com>
Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Vlad and Aliera - Inextricably linked?
Message-ID:
<bafb0b8d1001261027w4abd7514o49d81a052f1d680d at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I read this, loved it, and at the end thought "That must be that Scott
Shultz guy again. Checked the name and it was.
\Steve
2010/1/26 Scott Schultz <scott at cjhunter.com>
> It occurred to me that Vlad and Aliera may be linked closer than I'd
> previously imagined.
>
> They're "soul siblings".
>
> Vlad plays multiple vital roles in Aliera's resurrection and release
from
> the Paths.
>
> Devera has an interest in both Vlad and Vlad Norathar.
>
> When Aliera's life is threatened, Vlad comes riding in to the rescue.
>
> Aliera has Pathfinder. Vlad has Godslayer. The two Great Weapons are
> themselves linked at some metaphysical level, according to Morrolan's
> Serioli friend. Paraphrased - "If one of the two weapons has made an
> appearance, then the other tends to show up as well."
>
> Vlad is instrumental in finding and releasing Pathfinder, as well as
> putting it into Aliera's hands. (Of course, there's also the
implication
> that Pathfinder was "looking for" Aliera all along.)
>
> It's not a coincidence that Vlad has figured so prominently in key
areas of
> Aliera's life post-Interregnum. (Not her daily life; we know little
about
> that.)
>
> I'm convinced that Vlad has not been randomly chosen to carry
Godslayer.
> Whether it's "fate" or the influence of the Lords of Judgement, there
is a
> reason that a (relatively) short-lived Easterner with a karmic burden
is
> carrying the blade that can destroy a God. Whatever "The Final
Contract" (or
> whatever it really turns out to be) is about, it seems likely that
we're
> going to see Pathfinder and Godslayer coming together to fulfill their
> combined purpose. That necessarily implies that Aliera and Vlad are
going to
> be sharing each other's fate at some level. Death for one or both is a
> likely outcome, especially if the destruction or removal of one or
both of
> their Great Weapons is involved.
>
> One wonders what Vlad would do if he was faced with a crisis point,
with
> freedom to choose his action, and the knowledge that his entire life
had
> been manipulated towards one specific action, especially if that
action
> involved life and death for Aliera, Verra, or both?
>
> One thing's for certain - as a tool of the Gods, knowingly or
unknowingly,
> he's a loose cannon. Despite her claims on his loyalty and her
particular
> brand of foreknowledge, even Verra would have a difficult time pushing
Vlad
> to make a decision to do the "right" thing (meaning fulfulling his
appointed
> destiny as opposed to saying "Frag it all"). Ironically, I think the
one
> person who might be able to help him to make the "best" choice as
opposed to
> making the most annoyingly contrary, most pointlessly heroic, or most
> self-serving choice would be Lady Teldra. It may be that she isn't
going to
> awaken until Vlad is faced with a need for her guidance at the final
> juncture.
>
> Hmmm... Reading that last paragraph, I'm even pushed to speculate that
"The
> Final Contract" will recap the theme of the entire series, with one
chapter
> devoted to the theme of each House and Vlad behaving like the patron
animal
> in each of the chapters.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dragaera mailing list
> Dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
> http://lists.dragaera.info/listinfo.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info
>
--
\Steve
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:25:59 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261119001.20584 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
> On 1/26/2010 9:42 AM, Alexx Kay wrote:
>>> Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
>>> formulation - no one else can touch Pathfinder, for one thing.
>>>
>> Really? I mean, under most circumstances, it would be suicidally
dumb,
>> but I don't recall anyone saying it's impossible.
>>
Well, ok. And I don't know how much faith to put in Vlad's comment
about
touching another's GW in _Issola_, or emphasis on "touch" as noted just
below.
> I don't know how magic the sheaths are, or how thoroughly
sheath-trained the
> Great Weapons might be.
>
> However, if I were assigned the job of arresting Aliera and removing
> Pathfinder from her custody in this situation, I would approach it by
> politely asking her to set Pathfinder aside and come with me. That
might be
> survivable, especially if she was expecting something like it.
That's what I imagined. Aliera wasn't warned iirc, which means she
might
not choose the best path, so to speak. Still I can imagine her handing
the sword to Morrolan for safe-keeping, but then "taken" seems odd.
"They
insisted that I relinquish [better word here] PF when I was arrested".
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:31:05 -0800
From: Ray Lee <ray at madrabbit.org>
To: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
Cc: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<2c0942db1001261131q60fd187euefce22f3882f2ce5 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
On Tue, Jan 26, 2010 at 11:25 AM, Philip Hart
<philiph at slac.stanford.edu>wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [ This spoiler space brought to you by Burma Shave! ]
>
>
>
>
>
>
> That's what I imagined. Aliera wasn't warned iirc, which means she
might
> not choose the best path, so to speak. Still I can imagine her
handing the
> sword to Morrolan for safe-keeping, but then "taken" seems odd. "They
> insisted that I relinquish [better word here] PF when I was arrested".
>
Really? She's bitter. People write checks to the IRS all the time, and
then
turn around and complain the government is stealing their money.
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 11:41:26 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: Dragaera Mailing List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001260929200.20149 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Scott Schultz wrote:
>> From: Philip Hart Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 11:35 PM
>> To: Dragaera Mailing List Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random
brief
>> comments (spoilers!)
>
>
> a
> b
> c
> d
> e
> f
> g
> h
> i
> j
> k
> l
> m
> n
> o
> p
> q
>
>
>> Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
formulation
>
> Part what's going on here is that Aliera is participating in her own
> incarceration. She's allowed herself to be arrested and she's allowing
> herself to be tried, judged, and even killed if it comes to that.
Pathfinder
> may have been "taken" but it's only because she gave it up willingly.
Oops, getting out of order. Anyway...
Sure, my quibble was with Aliera not saying, "I allowed Pathfinder to be
taken" or something a bit less passive.
It occurs to me that Zerika doesn't need to threaten the Jhereg in
person
as it were - she can mention that if Vlad is killed by a Morganti
weapon,
the empire is going to be too busy to prevent Aliera from using
Pathfinder
to discover and permanently eat everyone involved. She doesn't even
need
to mention it - it should be obvious. Which makes it hard to understand
why anyone would take the job. For that matter I can imagine Aliera and
say Morrolan spending a few weeks going around collecting assassins sent
after Vlad, relieving them of their weapons, and letting them spend a
few
centuries in a slow-time dimension a la _Yendi_.
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:08:50 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: Dragaera Mailing List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261127030.20584 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote:
>> a
>> b
>> c
>> d
>> e
>> f
>> g
>> h
>> i
>> j
>> k
>> l
>> m
>> n
>> o
>> p
>> q
>>
>>
>> Water transport - why bother, when teleportation is so easy? Maybe
it's
>> still practical to move heavy loads by river somehow?
>
> Teleportation is 'easy' to highly-trained sorcerers. Vlad finds it
> difficult, and a lot of Dragaerans can't do it at all.
>
> Also, most of the teleportation we've seen has been of sentient beings
> (and their personal effects). It's conceivable that teleporting
> non-living matter is more difficult.
>
> Lastly, transport by water is *astoundingly* cheap. If you haven't
done
> the research, you'd be amazed at how much cheaper than ground
transport it
> is. Even in the modern world, with airports, freeways, and railroads,
> shipping by water is very often the cheapest option.
>> Pg. 26 - "Given what the ugly thing is famous for" - what's this?
>
> Steven Brust being a tease, that's what :-)
Still we ought to be able to come up with a sensible other end. Famous
for never looking backwards doesn't do it for me.
Another such thing we should come up with is Loiosh's possibly
treasonous
comments about Zerika, pg. 50 I think, AFT.
>> Pg. 29 - "House?" "Imperial." - This is the sort of thing that led
me to
>> keep emphasizing that Vlad has an imperial title and as such a good
claim
>> on independence from the Jhereg, which is anyway something of a
fiction on
>> several counts.
>
> Note that he is still a Baronet of House Jhereg; the "Imperial House"
> applies to his Count-ship. And he still self-identifies as a Jhereg.
Could he not resign his baronetcy? Maybe exposure to the Iorich will
lead
to him getting the idea of doing so.
"he still self-identifies as a Jhereg"
He does and he doesn't, I think.
>
>> Pg. 39 - how is Vlad positioned to harass Lady Ardema?
>
> A) Imperial title gives him a certain base amount of weight to throw
around.
>
> B) He probably knows about some unethical behavior in her past that he
> could potentially reveal. (Presumably implicating himself in the
process,
> but he's been well-established as someone who won't let a little thing
> like that stop him if he cares enough.)
B) was true before - A) is unclear to me.
>> Pg. 45 - Capital punishment - we've been told before that Zerika, as
a
>> reborn Phoenix, doesn't go for this.
>
> Not that I disagree, but do you happen to remember where we learn
this? I
> know she's willing to do it under sufficient provocation (e.g Kana).
In an early Vladiad book I think - I seem to recall a conversation about
a
crime including the comment, "Zerika is a reborn Phoenix and so won't
take your head". Maybe I'm wrong. And certainly Kana disproves the
claim.
>> Pg. 49 - Here Vlad says "Jhereg" and not "Imperial", interestingly.
>
> As I said above, the "Imperial-House-ness" attaches to one specific
title,
> not to the person as a whole.
Well, but we know nothing about imperial titles.
>> Pg. 68 - "they have taken Pathfinder from me" - this is a weird
>> formulation - no one else can touch Pathfinder, for one thing.
>
> Really? I mean, under most circumstances, it would be suicidally
dumb,
> but I don't recall anyone saying it's impossible.
>
>> And Aliera is able to make amorphia, it's silly to disarm her.
>
> Symbolism matters.
Sure, I'm quibbling, but again, there is probably plenty of literary
precedent for allowing such a high noble to retain her sword, and as
discussed in the novel Zerika is probably (supposed to be) trying in
part to placate the noble houses.
> Also, a person might be willing to fight their way out of prison,
where
> they wouldn't be willing to use Elder Sorcery to destroy the prison.
> Especially when what they're charged with in the first place is Elder
> Sorcery...
The GWs are powered by ES, no? Or do we not know?
> (Hm. Given Pathfinder's special abilities, I expect that having it
might
> let Aliera find the secret passage that (I presume) the Vallista
architect
> must have put in :-)
That's better.
> (Hm further. Maybe that's where Zerika's plan went wrong; she hadn't
> intended for Pathfinder to be taken away in the first place, but a
zealous
> and/or finicky Iorich did so.)
The escape plan is just not sensible, that must be something dreamed up
to
make Norathar feel better.
>> Pg. 113/4 In Dragaeran "Hawk" is something like "raptor", of which
there
>> are various sorts named in Fenarian. It's odd to have a house named
>> after something vague.
>
> Perhaps in the language of House Hawk, there are finer distinctions.
I would think that such distinctions would percolate into the common
tongue.
------------------------------
Message: 24
Date: Tue, 26 Jan 2010 12:36:56 -0800 (PST)
From: Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
To: dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Subject: Re: [Dragaera] _Iorich_ random brief comments (spoilers!)
Message-ID:
<Pine.LNX.4.64.1001261211390.20584 at rdpc11.slac.stanford.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
...
...
On Tue, 26 Jan 2010, Howard Brazee wrote:
> On 1/26/2010 8:42 AM, Alexx Kay wrote:
>> Lastly, transport by water is*astoundingly* cheap. If you haven't
done
>> the research, you'd be amazed at how much cheaper than ground
transport it
>> is. Even in the modern world, with airports, freeways, and
railroads,
>> shipping by water is very often the cheapest option.
Ack, meant to respond to Alexx's comment above too.
Lost in the snippage the claim that Vlad doesn't teleport well - I think
he didn't like to do it because it made him sick, but we've seen him
accomplish it under incredibly difficult circumstances (with some help
of
the sort that would be easy to set up here).
> And their society isn't one that is designed around doing everything
quickly.
So iirc it takes three days to transport goods down river from the start
point of the novel, at no profit (the profit is going upriver with
salt).
It must take longer going upriver. So that's over a week's salaries for
the crews, plus feed for the oxen or whatever that pull the barges
upriver, plus loading and unloading time at the docks, plus transport to
and from the docks if the final warehouses are elsewhere. Can that
really
be cheaper than a teleport, even without time pressure in the society,
if
that's still true? At the end of the Piroiad we already see that
merchants are abandoning land travel.
If in fact the calculation works out cheaper for the
crew/longshoremen/etc
salaries/etc., then that means there is an incredible gulf between the
value of manual labor and simple magical labor. I don't know how that
would be supportable economically or societally.
------------------------------
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