[Dragaera] Interesting answers, thanks.

[Steve Rapaport]

Thanks all for a great roundtable! And thanks for answering -- I was kind of
afraid it would just slide, since people might have more important stuff to
discuss. But if you like, here's more on this if you're interested:
And
of
course
we're
still
discussing
spoilers
from
Dzur
you know.

Now I'm going to have to go back and re-read this thing a few times to see
> if I get more satisfied about:
>
> * Why is simply giving South Adrilankha up to whatever faction not an
> option
> for Cawti or Vlad?  Neither of them wants it.  How is Vlad saving Cawti
> somehow by helping?  I expect I'll catch this on the second time through.


Thanks for all the responses to this one, which were all valuable.  I'm
going through the book again and I'd answer my own question now with some
extra points that I haven't heard from y'all yet.

* Guilt.  Mario makes it clear to Vlad that the trouble in South Adrilankha
is Vlad's own fault.  Vlad accepts this load of guilt and therefore must
solve the problem himself.  (Same thing that got him in trouble with the
Jhereg in the first place).
* Dragon-Jhereg trouble:  Allowing the current course of events to continue
will drag Norathar into things where, as Dragon heir, she can't afford to
be.  And a serious war will likely erupt between Dragon & Jhereg, which we
already know is a Bad Thing.
* And as Davdi mentioned, Cawti can't back down because South Adrilankha is
her people and her passion.

 So I'm satisfied that Vlad is trapped.

I also understand now why Vlad can't get Verra off his mind, and why his
direct-action swashbuckling personality absolutely must confront her right
now.  And he does get value from it, though he possibly could have done that
without threatening her life or being obnoxious.

I really think Vlad, being now mature enough and powerful enough not to be
intimidated anymore by Sethra or Morrolan or even Verra, should be able to
keep a civil tongue around Daymar while getting free help from him.  I don't
see the source of that conflict even now.

Davdi says:

Daymar is a specialist.  Vlad might be able to learn Daymar's
speciality, but he doesn't have the time or patience.  He just wants
Daymar's specialist knowledge that can help him.

Now, if it were me, I'd be interested in learning all about Daymar's
skills and how they work.  But Vlad is less curious and more
goal-oriented.  It's partly just personality, and partly a tactical
decision to limit the conversation to how Daymar's knowledge can help
with the specific situation he had to deal with right at that time -
and there was a certain immediacy to the situation that limited how
much he could allow Daymar to digress into details.

I like the idea that he wants Daymar's help without the theory, just as he
does with Jakoub's shoes, and so he's brusque with both of them.  But at
least he's paying Jakoub.  I can't see why Daymar keeps coming back.  Maybe
next time he'll need Teldra's help to get another favor out of Daymar.



> And the concept of a creature out there of unknown intentions that can
> mess with his mind that way is very deeply offensive to Vlad, pretty
> clearly. The clear evidence that she *has done so* really strains him.


Yeah, I can see that.  She's gone beyond simply using him for her own ends,
and into invading his mind.   So he's really mad now.


> >  And Vlad seems more mature than he was, and less intimidated by
> powerful
> > folk, so why hasn't he relaxed a bit around Daymar yet, and perhaps
> started
> > to even be civil when he's the one asking for favors?


DD-B:
> I dunno, they've always seemed to have that sort of relationship.  Why
> would you expect it to suddenly change?  *If* it was all because Vlad
> was under stress before, then maybe; but I see no reason to believe
> that.



I always had the feeling he was irritated with Daymar just because Daymar
was so inherently powerful and unknowable.   Same way he is with the
Necromancer.  They're both sweet as honey to Vlad, and it takes effort to be
civil back, because he likes to feel in control, and he can't with either of
them around.

So I expected him to mellow a bit toward Daymar and the Necromancer, the
same way he's no longer killing Orca for racial harassment (p63).  Because
he's more in control and powerful himself, so he doesn't need to bring
others down.


> Speaking of the Dagger, a notion about why Mario still calls her that:
> It's to remind himself that she's still a potentially deadly killer,
> for all that she's gone into semi-retirement.  Vlad has an attachment
> to her and can lose sight of that; Mario can't afford the carelessness
> of thinking of her as being anything less deadly than she is.


Good answer from Davdi I think.  Mine was just a vague feeling that Mario
just moved in different circles from Vlad (e.g. "the Association") and they
had a different viewpoint on things.


> Davdi sez:
> Oh, and in addition to everything else I posted about, I think there
> is also the psychological  aspect of saving "face".  Cawti has a
> certain status in the Jhereg, and respect from potential associates
> based on her reputation, and self-love based on her strengths and
> integrity.
>
> Giving in to the Left Hand on the matter of South Adrilankha would
> lessen all of those, causing her to lose face.


Nope, this one I don't buy, since having Vlad come in to save her is equally
a loss of face for her, as she makes quite clear both before and after.  If
it weren't, she would have asked for help from Vlad before.



> If anyone did to you what Verra had done to Vlad, would you not be
> just a wee bit annoyed, and paranoid as to how much they had been
> manipulating you?



Yes, I buy this.


But it might be more generally that Daymar (and Aibynn, come to think
> of it) are just so alien to him in the way they think.  And yes, he's
> had some time to get used to the difference in thought processes, but
> I think it still confuses him, and throws him off balance.


Yeah, yeah, yeah, but.  Since his early experiences with Daymar he's
accustomed himself to alien thinking like Morrolan's, Sethra's, and even
made some progress with Verra.  I felt he should have Daymar nearly solved
by now.



> >  Likewise if Vlad
> > asked questions to Sethra instead of sparring with her verbally.
>
> Heh.  Vlad knows that Sethra will tell him exactly what she wants to,
> and ignore (or reply ambiguously about) everything else he asks about.
>
> Besides, the sparring is amusing, and underscores that Vlad is
> comfortable enough around a 250,000-year-old undead vampire sorceress
> military expert to verbally spar with her.



I like this answer for Sethra at least.


I also like the following replies:

The Daymar discussion reminds me of a question I had: Vlad hasn't used
> witchcraft in a while - could he not do something along the lines of
> casting a spell on a certain house to make those inside feel an urge to
> leave?  Could Cawti not have hired a witch or a coven in SA to do the
> same, or to drive out other Jhereg influences?  For that matter, couldn't
> she just polish up her knife-tossing skills and work on those trying
> to take over (prior to the Left Hand stuff at least)?
>
> And what's up with Kelly's group?  Are they not willing to organize in
> support of Cawti's efforts to clean up the neighborhood?
>
>
> I don't think we've seen witchcraft used against a really good
> high-class sorcerer, so far.  If someone did try it, the attempt might
> be noted, traced back, and result in a high-level smackdown from the
> sorceresses.
>
> A coven might have a better chance, but I don't get the impression
> that there are that many covens around.  I rather think that there is
> more effort involved in collaborative witchcraft than Paarfi
> understands or conveys in his novels.
>
> >
> > For that matter, couldn't
> > she just polish up her knife-tossing skills and work on those trying
> > to take over (prior to the Left Hand stuff at least)?
> >
>
> I think she takes her retirement from the assassin gig seriously.
> Mario implies that it was Norathar &c who went in and started killing
> flunkies.
>
> >
> > And what's up with Kelly's group?  Are they not willing to organize in
> > support of Cawti's efforts to clean up the neighborhood?
> >
>
> I rather suspect that Kelly's group were the ones who encouraged the
> total shutdown that she tried at first, and the she split from them
> (or rather, they kicked her out for ideological impurity) when she
> tried to run the area "more gently", as Mario put it.  I note that
> they aren't even mentioned in /Dzur/ - presumably, Cawti is too
> embarrassed to bring them up, and Vlad doesn't mention them because he
> doesn't care what happened to them, and he considers them to be
> irrelevant anyway (except for how they impact his life).


This last actually added a lot of missing stuff for me, and I believe it
totally.

Very good discussion I think.

\Steve the Younger