[Dragaera] OT: Ray Bradbury

[Jon Lincicum]

 -------------- Original message ----------------------
From: "Ray Lee" <ray at madrabbit.org>
> On 7/19/07, Davdi Silverrock <davdisil at gmail.com> wrote:
> > On 7/18/07, Maximilian Wilson wrote:
> > > On 7/18/07, Davdi Silverrock wrote:
> > > > On 7/18/07, Maximilian Wilson wrote:
> > > > > Not state-sponsored censorship, then. Self-censorship by the community.
> > > >
> > > > When the "community" is large enough, it *is* the state.
> > >
> > > So the ban on picking your nose in public is state-sponsored?
> >
> > WTF?
> >
> > Seriously, what does that even mean?
> 
> Seemed clear enough to me, in a Reductio ad absurdum kind of way.
> 
> Stated differently, saying that any large enough community
> automatically qualifies as The State is misleading. For example. Most
> Americans think picking your nose in public is rude, and therefore
> shouldn't be done. Since 'Most Americans' qualifies as a 'large enough
> community', then by your argument above the gov't believes picking
> your nose in public is rude, and therefore shouldn't be done. This is
> an absurd result, and so something in the argument was wrong. In this
> case, that any majority is automatically its own government.

I would say it is equally as absurd to contend that there is not a significant difference between an activity that is objectionable, and one that is illegal. 

I've picked my nose in public plenty of times, and probably grossed out a lot of people.

I am not aware of anyone ever having been arrested for it. I certainly haven't been.

"The state" consists of two major groups. The people actually engaged in making and enforcing laws... And the people whose consent to those laws makes the first group possible. (Note that all members of the first group are also members of the second.)

So, yes, I can see a problem with the assertion that "Any community large enough is the state". This is more correctly stated as "Any large enough community allows the state to function." 

However, I also see a big problem with the assertion that there is some kind of "ban" on public nose-picking. While the second group certainly would consider this objectionable, this has never been codified into a legal ban by the first group. Hence, there is no "ban on public nose-picking", as such. (Really, saying "ban" directly implies that it *is* an activity that has been codified into law. Which ends up chasing its own tail later in the same sentence.)

But public nose picking is a simple annoyance, and not something that the populace is interested in banning through codified legislation. (i.e. The majority of the populace considers their right to pick their nose if they wanted to to be more important than not having to be subjected to the sight of other people doing the same.)

A better test of the "any bug community is the state" rule might be "Do we let the Neo-Nazi's march through the town square?" Or "Do we support the right to freedom of speech for the little boy that yelled "FIRE" in the crowded movie theater?"

In the first case, it's legal in our society, though many of us wish it wasn't, in the second case, it's not legal in our society, though there are likely many people who would say it should be. 

Majikjon