[Dragaera] Vlad's passivity--getting long

[Alexx Kay]

Jerry Friedman:
> --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Alexx Kay <alexx at panix.com> wrote:
>> Jerry Friedman:
>> > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Alexx Kay
>> <alexx at panix.com> wrote:
>> >> Jerry Friedman:

>> It probably
>> is generally known that Morrolan went to the Paths to fetch
>> Aliera back,
>> but further details seem to me unlikely to be public
>> knowledge.  (Maybe
>> there *is* a song, but it's largely unrelated to the
>> truth :-)
>
> I don't see why it shouldn't also be widely known that
> Vlad (or an Jhereg Easterner who carries a jhereg on his
> shoulder) went with Morrolan and had a crucial role,

Who's going to talk about that crucial role?  Vlad doesn't seem likely to.
 What are M or A going to say?  "Vlad went off by himself for an hour, and
I don't know what he did.  When he came back, he had a vial of something
that solved the problem.  I still don't understand what it was."  I can't
envision either of them wanting to tell that kind of story, as it makes
them look ignorant and dependent.

>> What I actually said was "Those who follow politics
>> might infer that it
>> had something to do with the Greenaere war.  Then again,
>> they might
>> believe it had something to do with suppressing the riots
>> in South
>> Adrilankha (an issue which Vlad was at least somewhat known
>> to be involved
>> in)."  All of which are guesses, and rely upon a
>> knowledge of (and
>> interest in) fairly high-level politics.  We don't know
>> that Ric has such
>> knowledge/interest (though, to be fair, we don't know
>> that he *doesn't*).
>
> Actually, some people don't have to guess.  What the
> seneschal proclaims when Vlad is ennobled includes,
> "And by his own actions, at risk of his life..."
> and, "...which would certainly have cost the lives of
> thousands of Imperial citizens..."  The ellipses
> must contain a mention of the war.

OK, I cede this point.

> We can only speculate on how closely you have to
> follow politics to know this, but I'd think that
> when a Jhereg Easterner, already at least vaguely
> known to many Easterners, gets an Imperial Title for
> ending a war that everyone was worried about
> (especially potential conscripts), true and false
> rumors are going to fly.

When lots of contradictory rumors fly, it doesn't matter very much if some
of them happen to be true.

>> Regardless of what he knows or guesses, I'm willing to
>> bet, just based on
>> Vlad's character, that the two of them never discuss
>> Vlad's business
>> activities.  Even if Ric knows, he'd probably regard it
>> as impolite to bring up.
>
> But Ric has no reason to associate Vlad's title with
> his business activities.  /That/ part is still
> secret.

No reason apart from common logic.  Most random Easterners don't get
caught up in Matters of State.

>> > But there's plenty of time after that for them to
>> > warn him.
> [that Loraan isn't dead, exactly, and may want revenge]
>
>> What's to warn?  By the standards of polite Dragaeran
>> society, the problem
>> is over and done with.  (Maybe.  I am inferring from few
>> examples.  But
>> more than the traditional 'one', at least!)
>
> Sorry, what are the examples?

In specific, the Sorceress in Green and Sethra the Younger, each of whom
show no specific desire for or tendency towards revenge.  In general, the
way that Castle Black is a place where polite conversation can be held
among even sworn enemies.  Although, now that I think on it, that last
might be a *counter*-example, since Castle Black is held to be exceptional
in this regard (at least by Vlad).

>> If Vlad hadn't essentially
>> fallen into Loraan's hands in _Athyra_, I doubt that L
>> would ever have moved against him.
>
> Maybe, but that's a big chance for Vlad's friends to
> take.

My more general point here is that Vlad has certain mistaken assumptions
(that Loraan is dead and will stay that way) and that his friends also
have mistaken assumptions (Vlad knows that Loraan is alive, because that's
How Things Are Done), each of these mistakes stemming from basic
misunderstanding about how the other's social class operates.

>> > Also, Vlad becomes Morrolan's security consultant,
>> > and I'd think Loraan's continued existence
>> would be a
>> > matter of security concern to Morrolan and Fentor.
>>
>> Again, by normal standards, there is nothing to worry
>> about.  Nobody
>> expects Loraan to attack Castle Black without there being
>> plenty of warning.
>
> Why?  Loraan might well be able to get into Castle
> Black.  Then he might be angry enough to do something
> dishonorable.  (We don't know much about Athyras' ideas
> of honor.  Dragons' ideas seem flexible enough.)  Or
> anyone might think it's enough warning to walk up to
> Morrolan and say, "Hello.  My name is Loraan.  You
> killed me.  Prepare to die."

To some extent, I am reasoning backwards from the (purported) problem.  If
Loraan was considered a security threat, it follows that Vlad *would* have
known about it (perhaps not immediately, but it would be bound to come up
eventually).  Vlad didn't know, therefore Loraan must not have been
considered a threat.  This implies certain things about Dragaeran society
which, if never made completely explicit, are at least consistent with
what we saw at the end of _Yendi_.

Alexx

     "What [faction] do you think Weisshaupt is?"
"Weisshaupt is _wealthy_.  Most wealthy people are wealthy people
 first and whatever else they are _second_."
              -- Cerebus, "The Countess & the Aardvark"