[Dragaera] Vlad's passivity--getting long

[Jerry Friedman]

--- On Sat, 10/25/08, Alexx Kay <alexx at panix.com> wrote:
> Jerry Friedman:
> > --- On Thu, 10/23/08, Alexx Kay
> <alexx at panix.com> wrote:
> >> Jerry Friedman:
> >> > --- On Tue, 10/21/08, Alexx Kay
> >> <alexx at panix.com> wrote:
> >> >> Jerry Friedman:
> 
> >> It probably
> >> is generally known that Morrolan went to the Paths
> >> to fetch Aliera back,
> >> but further details seem to me unlikely to be
> >> public knowledge.  (Maybe
> >> there *is* a song, but it's largely unrelated
> >> to the truth :-)
> >
> > I don't see why it shouldn't also be widely
> known that
> > Vlad (or an Jhereg Easterner who carries a jhereg on
> his
> > shoulder) went with Morrolan and had a crucial role,
> 
> Who's going to talk about that crucial role?  Vlad
> doesn't seem likely to.
>  What are M or A going to say?  "Vlad went off by
> himself for an hour, and
> I don't know what he did.  When he came back, he had a
> vial of something
> that solved the problem.  I still don't understand what
> it was."  I can't
> envision either of them wanting to tell that kind of story,
> as it makes them look ignorant and dependent.

It seems a bit dishonest (by my standards, not necessarily
theirs) not to at least say that Vlad played a crucial
role.  If someone asked what it was, they don't have to
give details.

And I still think they have a reason: snubbing people
who don't think they should hang around with Vlad.
...
 
> > We can only speculate on how closely you have to
> > follow politics to know this, but I'd think that
> > when a Jhereg Easterner, already at least vaguely
> > known to many Easterners, gets an Imperial Title for
> > ending a war that everyone was worried about
> > (especially potential conscripts), true and false
> > rumors are going to fly.
> 
> When lots of contradictory rumors fly, it doesn't
> matter very much if some
> of them happen to be true.

But they all make the gossiped-about person more
famous.
 
> >> Regardless of what he knows or guesses, I'm
> willing to
> >> bet, just based on
> >> Vlad's character, that the two of them never
> >> discuss Vlad's business
> >> activities.  Even if Ric knows, he'd probably
> >> regard it as impolite to bring up.
> >
> > But Ric has no reason to associate Vlad's title
> with
> > his business activities.  /That/ part is still
> > secret.
> 
> No reason apart from common logic.  Most random Easterners
> don't get caught up in Matters of State.

But Vili and other waiters, at least, know Vlad
hobnobs with courtiers.

Much depends on what they know.  I'll agree that if
it was made public that Vlad had helped turn in the
"real" assassin, Ricard and others would connect it
with Jhereg business and not discuss details.  On the
other hand, when I worked at Los Alamos National Lab,
it was impolite (to say the least) to talk about some
people's "work".  But if someone I played volleyball
with, say, had gotten the country's highest public
commendation for something he couldn't talk about,
I'd have congratulated him the next time I saw him,
carefully avoiding asking for details.

> >> > But there's plenty of time after that for
> them to
> >> > warn him.
> > [that Loraan isn't dead, exactly, and may want
> revenge]
> >
> >> What's to warn?  By the standards of polite
> Dragaeran
> >> society, the problem
> >> is over and done with.  (Maybe.  I am inferring
> from few
> >> examples.  But
> >> more than the traditional 'one', at
> least!)
> >
> > Sorry, what are the examples?
> 
> In specific, the Sorceress in Green and Sethra the Younger,
> each of whom
> show no specific desire for or tendency towards revenge. 

I see you don't agree with me that Aliera's mind-probing
the SiG proves the opposite.

Why they don't worry about StY is another matter.  Maybe
they can count on the Elder to forbid revenge--it's
certainly clear that the Younger follows her orders.
Or maybe it's because she's a Dragon, in which we can
only speculate on what Athyras do.  (Except we know
Loraan will take an opportunity when it falls into
his hands.)

> In general, the
> way that Castle Black is a place where polite conversation
> can be held
> among even sworn enemies.  Although, now that I think on
> it, that last
> might be a *counter*-example, since Castle Black is held to
> be exceptional
> in this regard (at least by Vlad).

I'd forgotten that.  But I think the question isn't
social conversation but what nobles do the rest of
the time.
 
> >> If Vlad hadn't essentially
> >> fallen into Loraan's hands in _Athyra_, I
> doubt that L
> >> would ever have moved against him.
> >
> > Maybe, but that's a big chance for Vlad's
> > friends to  take.
> 
> My more general point here is that Vlad has certain
> mistaken assumptions
> (that Loraan is dead and will stay that way) and that his
> friends also
> have mistaken assumptions (Vlad knows that Loraan is alive,
> because that's
> How Things Are Done), each of these mistakes stemming from
> basic
> misunderstanding about how the other's social class
> operates.

Kiera, for what it's worth, has the same assumptions as
Vlad, and it's in character for her to know more than
him about how Dragonlords operate and to explain thing
to him when she does.

> >> > Also, Vlad becomes Morrolan's security
> consultant,
> >> > and I'd think Loraan's continued
> existence
> >> would be a
> >> > matter of security concern to Morrolan and
> Fentor.
> >>
> >> Again, by normal standards, there is nothing to
> >>  worry about.  Nobody
> >> expects Loraan to attack Castle Black without
> >> there being plenty of warning.
> >
> > Why?  Loraan might well be able to get into Castle
> > Black.  Then he might be angry enough to do something
> > dishonorable.  (We don't know much about
> Athyras' ideas
> > of honor.  Dragons' ideas seem flexible enough.) 
> Or
> > anyone might think it's enough warning to walk up
> > to Morrolan and say, "Hello.  My name is Loraan. 
> > You killed me.  Prepare to die."
> 
> To some extent, I am reasoning backwards from the
> (purported) problem.  If
> Loraan was considered a security threat, it follows that
> Vlad *would* have
> known about it (perhaps not immediately, but it would be
> bound to come up
> eventually).  Vlad didn't know, therefore Loraan must
> not have been
> considered a threat.  This implies certain things about
> Dragaeran society
> which, if never made completely explicit, are at least
> consistent with
> what we saw at the end of _Yendi_.

I agree that's possible, though it's hard for me to
believe Morrolan could have seen a revived Loraan as
posing no threat.

It's also possible that Steve, thinking how cool it would
be for Vlad to kill Loraan again, didn't worry about other
matters.

Jerry Friedman