[Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions

[Philip Hart]

On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Jon%20Lincicum wrote:

>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Philip Hart" <philiph at slac.stanford.edu>
> To: "Dragaera" <dragaera at dragaera.info>
> Sent: Monday, January 11, 2010 12:00:57 PM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Iorich ***SPOILERS**** First impressions
>
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 11 Jan 2010, Alexx Kay wrote:
>>
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>>>
>>> and a bit more spoiler space...
>>>
>>>
>
>> I don't really understand this. In Western societies at least we don't
>> say, "Organized crime is better than unorganized crime - we should force
>> every criminal to join the Mafia".
>
> Perhaps Dragaerans are smarter about such things. We have had efforts to 
> disrupt the mafia in this country (such as the attempt to keep them off 
> the west coast in the 50's and 60's, or the efforts against them by 
> RFK), and not only have these efforts been largely unsuccessful

I thought the RICO act had effectively crushed the Mafia as a major force.

> but the 
> alternative criminal organizations that have sprung up, such as the 
> street gangs of LA, are arguably worse than the mafia would have been. 
> The traditional mafia tends to discourage violence in day to day 
> activities; it's generally bad for business. Things can still get out of 
> hand, of course, but at least you know where to find the people 
> responsible when there is an "incident".

I thought that for the large majority of US society crime is much less 
of a problem than in the past.  It's horrible to be stuck in a poor 
gang-controlled area of course, but it seems to me less critical from a 
societal prospective than the situation in e.g. Italy, where the govt has 
for a long time been unacceptably weak in some areas.


> That's assuming you could prove they *were* responsible. Jhereg 
> assassins are good about avoiding leaving enough evidence to link them 
> to such crimes.

Hence the thorough Orbing.  Vlad only escaped before because of complicity 
by the questioner.


>
> Zerika did tell Vlad she'd made some threats, but that she lacked the 
> political ability to carry them out... And she suspects the Jhereg knew 
> this. Practical upshot--she has indeed done what you are suggesting, it 
> just isn't likely to make any real difference to Vlad's situation.

Maybe now Zerika can say, I see that given your latest actions it's worth 
my while to insist - I'll see your big fans House Dragon in place before 
I yield on this point.

>> And "done nothing but stir up trouble" is just silly. He's single-
>> handedly stopped a Dragon/Jhereg war and prevented a big stain on
>> the Dzur's honor. He's returned from the Paths with Aliera's body.
>> He has the favor of a goddess. He stopped a war. He was instrumental
>> in straightening out a bad situation in the ghetto. He helped prevent a
>> financial mess from getting worse. He helped kill a Jenoine and stop an
>> invasion. He just single-handedly extricated the Empire from a mess.
>
> I am curious just how much of any of this is really common knowledge?

Just a question of those who matter knowing.

> Certainly the Dzur would not have shared details about the Mellar 
> situation with anyone, so likely only a few high-level Dzur even know of 
> this, and they'd likely never admit it to anyone.

They're still bound by honor, if that matters to them.  And bound to tell 
anyone who asks why they're supporting Vlad that it's a point of honor.

>
> Stopping the Jhereg/Dragon war: would only have mattered to the Jhereg 
> and Dragons; the other Houses might have actually been in favor of it, 
> as it would have greatly weakened both houses. The Jhereg want Vlad dead 
> for other reasons, and the Dragon already supported him anyway, so no 
> change on that count.

Are the other houses really that cold?

The Dragons are now even more indebted - and visibly so.

> Returning with Aliera from the paths: again, only matters to the Dragon 
> (and likely the results of this have pissed off a number of them, also). 
> Why is returning Adron e'Kieron's daughter to life likely to be seen as 
> a *good* thing to most of the other Houses?

The Lyorn must care that Vlad has the favor of the gods, since that's 
obviously necessary to return.  Anyone at all pious ditto.  Maybe you're 
right about Aliera's popularity, but anyone sensible has to recognize 
the demonstration of Vlad's value to the Empire.


>
> Stopped a war with Greenaere/Elde: How many people know that he really 
> did this? As I recall, in /Phoenix/, his title was given to him due to 
> "services rendered to The Empire". How many people know the specifics of 
> this?

Everyone who's been at a party at Castle Black since then, I imagine, or 
knows anyone who has.


> Instrumental in straightening out a bad situation in the Ghetto: I'd say the Phoenix Guard did a lot more to straighten this out than what Vlad did. At least, that anyone else is likely to know about.
>
> Killed a Jenoine: Sure, he saved the world from subjugation by legendary 
> beings with the powers of the gods. Good one. Who told you that? Sethra 
> Lavode? (Point being, who is likely to believe such a wild-eyed tale? In 
> any case, the threat is over now, so what do they care?)

I don't expect anyone to believe Aliera, Morrolan, et al. would lie about 
this.  And anyone informed should know that Vlad is of vital importance to 
the future of the state based on past performance.  Anyone not informed 
should get a visit from the Dragon heir or the warlord or ...


>
> Basically, while *we* know Vlad is doing all these things (assuming he's 
> not just spinning yarns to his readers, that is), the actual public 
> account and awareness of his life is hardly the stuff of celebrity. To 
> the vast majority of the popultion, he's just some nameless Easterner 
> who is interesting only in that he actually has a title, knows some 
> powerful friends, and goes around with a jhereg on each shoulder.

It only matters here, so it seems to me, what the heads of the houses 
believe, and if they are susceptible to being informed they will be.


>>> The Jhereg may be a hated House; but they *are* a House.
>>
>> Are they? Zerika has iirc explicitly said that's a legal fiction.
>> They're certainly not a house like the Lyorn are, or even the Yendi.
>
> That's precisely the point. It's the kind of legal fiction that the 
> Houses are going to bend over backwards to maintain. Like the fiction 
> that all the Houses have an equal say in government.

I don't see why they wouldn't instead be ready to make exception for 
actions against the Jhereg that they could argue set no precedent against 
real houses.

>
>>> Any move against them by the Empire, or by any small plurality of other
>>> Houses, is likely to be seen as a political threat to the remaining
>>> ones.
>>
>> Seems to me the Empire gets to say, You can try to stir up riots among
>> the Teckla, you can kill amongst yourselves, but you can't touch my agent
>> without those responsible sharing the same fate.
>
> Sure. Zerika can say that. Good luck enforcing it.

A gold cloak can call in anyone in the Jhereg, no?


>>> I can't imagine that Vlad is held in very high regard, outside his small
>>> group of friends. As powerful as those friends may be, there aren't
>>> really that many of them compared to the rest of the population of The
>>> Empire.
>>
>> The population of the empire consists of Teckla and Easterners, who are
>> surely pro-Vlad here, and merchants who compete with the Jhereg at best,
>> and noble houses that Vlad has either signally helped or that should be
>> aware of those acts, and the Jhereg and Orca.
>
> Which Easterners and Teckla support Vlad, exactly? Of those that know 
> him, say, for example Paresh or Kelly, how well disposed to him do they 
> seem to be?

You think they're poorly disposed to the guy who recently, after manning 
the barricades on their side, wrestled away control of their area from a 
bunch of criminals who were trying to frame them as terroists and gave it 
over to an activist on their side?  Compared to the Jhereg?  The folks 
who just tried again to frame them as terrorists?