[Dragaera] comment on Dzurs (and Lyorn)

[Jerry Friedman]

On Tuesday, January 14, 2014 1:15 AM, Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>On Sun, 12 Jan 2014, Joshua Kronengold wrote:
>
>> Philip Hart <philiph at slac.stanford.edu> wrote:
>>> The Cycle drawing at the front of _Tiassa_ has House Dzur representing
>>> heroism and honor.  The Lyorn are tradition and duty.  Judging from the
>>>
>>> Paarfiad, I would tend to think that the Lyorn are more concerned with
>>> honor - Aerich, I would have said, cares more about honor and
>>> principles
>>> than Tazendra (e.g. in being unwilling to break bread with criminals).
>>
>> Honor is personal.  Aerich being unwilling to break bread with criminals 
>> is a typical law and order Lyorn position.
>>
>> There's nothing dishonorable about breaking bread with criminals.

I don't feel nearly so confident about honor, a word whose meaning seems
to vary a great deal.
 
As I recall (AWB), Aerich's specific refusal is to eat food that was gained
by theft or the proceeds of theft.  I think he ate with Kathana, who he knew
was a murderess at least from the legal point of view, and I believe he or at
least his friends have broken the laws governing dueling.
 
>I don't know if this is a popular opinion.  Recall that Piro and friends 
>are robbing innocent folk at sword point, laughing at their terror, and 
>murdering them if they resist.  It's curious to me that the Text doesn't 
>remark more on it.

Maybe because Dumas and Sabatini don't remark on the morality of their
brigands and pirates?  (Just a guess--I've never read either.)
 
>But Aerich is perfectly willing to be with criminals, and even to see 
>criminal behavior engaged in, without taking the least action (such as 
>informing the authorities) against it.
 
Definitely.
 
> He doesn't so much represent 
>law and order, I think, but (as more or less expressed in Ch. 77 of 
>the Pirodyssey, "Father and Son", where there are several extended 
>discussions of honor) an innate natural honor deeper than the societal 
>(at least from the view of that society - we don't approve of all of 
>Aerich's views, for good reasons).  For Aerich honor and the law 
>are naturally in harmony (the sort of axiom that fiction likes to 
>explode, and I suppose Paarfi gestures at that with his relationship 
>with Tazendra).

I hope I can be forgiven for linking to an article by Trotsky on ends and
means
 
http://www.marxists.org/archive/trotsky/1938/morals/morals.htm
 
and my post from five years ago suggesting that some of Aerich's morality
in Ch. 52 comes from there.
...
>> Lyorn vary, but most care about tradition, continuance, and the law.
>
>I think this doesn't quite reflect the Texts' view, or anyway that of 
>Paarfi.  For example, in Ch. 83 of the work referred to above we find 
>Zerika calling House Lyorn "the House to which others look for moral 
>guidance and political leadership".  On pg. 75 of _TPG_ Aerich "was 
>accorded the honor with which everyone looks upon a Lyorn.  The second 
>sentence he says to Khaavren concerns his sword point, his honor, which 
>"must never touch the ground".

An interesting comment for a literary character to make, but not part of
a universally accepted definition of honor, as far as I can see.

>The various nobles in the Paarfiad have their own personal honor, for 
>which they are willing to fight to the death, but for the Lyorn it's 
>more a feature of their House than having been raised in the nobility.
...
 
But Shaltre seems like a complete exception.
 
Jerry Friedman