[Dragaera] Cycle Surpresses Technology
Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera
dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
Mon May 30 13:47:46 PDT 2016
Very interesting. Maybe I can flesh it out some more.
Ok, so what do we have? We have a planet which contains the only known
natural source of amorphia. This planet becomes, naturally, something of a
curiosity to a race of creatures of a technological level so far advanced
that it is literally indistinguishable from magic. They study its effects,
engage in experiments with as much regard for their human test subjects as
*we* have for *our* rodent test subjects--because the technological divide
cuts both ways. If their technology is so advanced it's indistinguishable
from magic, then OUR technology is so backward that it's indistinguishable
from nature/fluke.
Put that way, it seems the most reasonable approach to challenging the
Jenoine is not to spend probably 100Ks of years playing catch up, but
rather, to develop, at great risk, a sudden expertise in the manipulation
of Raw Chaos, which substance the Jenoine are just starting to become
familiar with.
So that's what the Gods do. Whatever the Jenoine learn about Amorphia, one
or more of the Gods pick up to one degree or another, and when the time is
right, they use their knowledge to destroy the Jenoine scientists and take
control of the well from which all Chaos flows.
But they have a problem. The Gods are not invulnerable, even though they
are immortal. They can be, if not slain, then certainly "restricted" or
perhaps "defined" to a sufficient degree that they cannot pose a further
threat to the Jenoine; and the Gods realize that, sooner or later, the
Jenoine are going to win.
So they need more allies. More allies who are incredibly skilled magic
users, who haven't really wasted any of their efforts along technological
lines.
The Gods turn to the only other players who could possibly become useful
allies; the test subjects themselves. Exposed to amorphia, genetically
manipulated by the Jenoine, it is not hard to turn them against the
Jenoine, nor is it hard to turn some of them into "shamans" who can start
to control Amorphia directly.
To foster greater skill in sorcery, they take the most promising bloodlines
and create the Empire, or rather, they create the Cycle, which will ensure
that all of the houses remain alive and successful so that they can
continue their practice of sorcery. The Empire is just a manifestation of
the Cycle. The Cycle also acts to surpress most technological pursuits,
such that the world achieves a certain level of advancement, enough to be
getting on with in every day life, but otherwise ignores it entirely.
Because again, there's just no point developing the world's first musket if
your enemy has temporal phasers that are quantum locked with the core of a
star. No point developing technology if your opponent already has so much
that they've (possibly) even stopped developing technology. They've got
ALL the technology unlocked.
But innovation is very hard to surpress. Without constant
micro-management, too much time/energy is being spent pursuing non-magical
pursuits. And that means the Gods are spending too much time/energy
raising the test subjects, and not enough defending the world from Jenoine
incursions. This won't do. So they look around for something to be a
nanny for them; and they create the orb. The orb is enchanted with the
need to keep the Empire alive and equipped with the abilities to actually
succeed in doing so.
But even still, technology will out; so when the orb comes to them after a
disaster with Amorphia, they decide to refine it, so that sorcery is even
more powerful, because the more accessible magic is, the less technology
needs to develop, and the greater the spell effect of the Cycle/Orb are
(that surpresses technology in the first place). This effect covers the
entire planet; Dragaera AND Fenario. (we know that Verra is not unconcerned
with events in the East from _Brokedown Palace_).
And, rather like a rat will spend 100Ks of years doing the same damn thing
over and over again, eating cheese, having kids, running away from
cats...so too do the human populations stay "stagnant" for all intents and
purposes while their "evolution" is deliberately channeled into other
pursuit such as skill at sorcery.
What do you guys think?
Regards,
Jon Carey, B.A.(Hon), CHRL, CHRP
On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 4:12 PM, via Dragaera <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
wrote:
> Send Dragaera mailing list submissions to
> dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
>
> To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> http://lists.dragaera.info/listinfo.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info
> or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> dragaera-request at lists.dragaera.info
>
> You can reach the person managing the list at
> dragaera-owner at lists.dragaera.info
>
> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> than "Re: Contents of Dragaera digest..."
>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and no one has
> invented a steam engine? (Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera)
> 2. Re: Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and no one
> has invented a steam engine? (Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera)
> 3. Re: Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and no one
> has invented a steam engine? (Alexx Kay via Dragaera)
> 4. Re: Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and no one
> has invented a steam engine? (Philip Hart via Dragaera)
> 5. Re: Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and no one
> has invented a steam engine? (corey+scratchfactory.com via Dragaera)
> 6. Re: Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and no one
> has invented a steam engine? (Howard Brazee via Dragaera)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 12:53:47 -0400
> From: "Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera"
> <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: [Dragaera] Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history and
> no one has invented a steam engine?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANeR+DJip7yj-HUKmQ7OvqvOJNLeiZiSgkWzDFkSqxnvTUKn1g at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Often, in fantasy literature, the author likes to allude to the hundred if
> not thousands of years that this world/society etc has been going on,
> possibly in an attempt to create the feeling of a Tolkien-esque level of
> world-building without all that pesky "world-building" nonsense. But
> throughout all that history, the society seems to be stuck in a template
> time period. Middle Earth is stuck for thousands of years in an Ancient
> Roman type society. Dragaera seems to revolve around a Renaissance-type
> time period. I could list more examples, but as it's a very common issue,
> I'll leave it to you to come up with more if you don't believe me. It
> shouldn't be too hard.
>
> The reason for this in OUR world is obvious; the author likes to write
> about something cool; or on a subject that they are very passionate about.
> Not a little (sub) conscious nostalgia/sentimentality sneaks into the work
> as a result, but the difficulty arises when the fans try to answer their
> question WITHIN the fantasy world's limits.
>
> The question is, more or less, "how the hell has science not progressed
> beyond x in all that time?"
>
> The answers to this question are often unsatisfactory, since a satisfactory
> answer would require a truly creative mind, able to imagine a world
> entirely different from our own. We use fantasy and other types of fiction
> as an escape; but we are limited in our flight by the confines of our
> experience in many unavoidable ways. Ultimately, I think readers tend to
> find a series that they like, and then ignore this most glaring problem in
> favour of enjoying a good story :)
>
> Unfortunately, I'm one of those minds that likes to
> explain/compartmentalize; despite my cognitive awareness that neat and tidy
> explanations are actually the exception and not the rule, my mind seeks to
> tie up loose ends; and consequently, I spend quite a bit of time trying to
> explain this and other plot holes. I find that "filling in the gaps" makes
> the story, for me, more enjoyable.
>
> But my mind is not one of those truly creative minds that I mentioned
> above; I must make due with a moderately creative mind as I seek to
> surround myself with an impenetrable illusion of fantasy and magic.
>
> So, there are a number of more common explanations for the "Time-Period
> Lock" effect, and I will enumerate them, and why they're not particularly
> satisfying, specifically as it concerns Dragaera:
>
> 1) Magic is a matricide; ie, if Necessity is the mother of invention, then
> Magic drove a 6-inch stiletto into Necessity's left eye. This explanation
> is perfectly fine for the noble classes and other magic using Houses -- but
> it falls apart when you consider the lower Houses, particularly the
> Teckla. Their lives are so labour-intensive that Necessity gets revivified
> and is most likely quite irate at magic. There's bound to be a social
> disincentive for Teckla to get too uppity; but the problem there is that
> many inventions/discoveries such as might be found in Terran Society around
> the 16th-17th Century are too damn useful to ignore; and moreover, there's
> still the society in the East; presumably with little to no contact with
> Faerie, their technological advancement would describe something similar to
> our own. But as far as I can tell, they've been there for *hundreds of
> thousands of years* without progressing beyond a more or less feudal level
> of technology.
>
> One of the most unavoidable drivers of a society's progression is its
> relationship to the outside world; and many Dragaerans are aware of the
> fact that they are a planet hurtling through the galaxy. An argument could
> be made that this knowledge is only among a select few of the big and
> powerful; but those are usually the type of people who say to themselves
> "hmmm going to other places can get me more power" so that objection kind
> of falls apart.
>
> 2) The Natural Maturation cycle of Dragaerans: they take almost a thousand
> years, give or take a couple centuries, to reach adulthood. This is BOUND
> to have a retarding (read: slowing) effect on the speed of their daily
> lives. Psychologically, this is very sound, but there are precious few
> examples of this actually being the case in the books themselves.
> Dragaerans, for all intents and purposes, seem to live as "quickly" as we
> do, just over a far longer period of time (which seems to be, very roughly,
> 34x the length of an average Easterner's life).
>
> The implications of this would be, to my mind, that technology would
> advance even FASTER than our own since the "productive" period of any
> innovator would be longer. Even in the presence of magic as an alternative
> mechanism for doing work, this effect should still be noticeable. It also
> seems that Dragaerans learn approximately as fast as Easterners do, so
> another question arises: why isn't every Dragaeran a "renaissance man" with
> expert-level qualifications in almost every field?
>
> 3) The problems presented by 1) and 2) might be answered to some degree by
> examining the effects of the genetic experimentation of the Jenoine. I
> think, to a certain degree, that the middle/lower classes are terrified of
> Dragons and Dzur because, to them, it is as if a real, actual predator is
> nearby. Maybe there's a scent Dragaerans pick up off of each other or
> something. But a Teckla could never not be terrified of a Dragon; and that
> fear would be all-consuming; the idea of developing something that would
> bring a Dragon's attention to them would be as suicidal as walking up to
> one of your natural predators with a sign on your neck reading "Tasty".
>
> In my opinion, that fear can only go so far to explain the "culture lock"
> of Dragaeran society. A future fear/pain will often be de-prioritized in
> the presence of an actual, present pain. And regardless of the fact that
> the future pain is a deadly terror and the current pain only an annoyance,
> sooner or later there's going to be a guy who laughs off the fear in favour
> of making something to reduce the labour-hours required by a task; thereby
> allowing him to spend more time on other productive pursuits as well. This
> is one of the foundational realities of class oppression--if you keep a
> population so busy with the simple task of surviving, they won't have time
> to think about how unfair it all is; and certainly won't have enough time
> to get around to doing anything about it.
>
> Eventually, someone's going to transpose the fear/threat represented by
> attracting a Dragon's attention with the fear/threat posed by a society
> that considers it ok to kill you for no good reason as long as the killer
> is a noble and the victim is a peasant.
>
> So the genetics explanation, as I said, can only go so far.
>
> 4) Sethra Lavode and the Gods. She exists to protect the Empire. The
> Empire is a direct manifestation of the Cycle. The Cycle is...what,
> exactly? Unknown, except we know that it's incredibly important to not
> only Dragaerans, but also their Gods as well. It is very
> conceivable--indeed, I would go so far as to say that it is
> *probable*--that the Gods themselves are maintaining an otherwise unnatural
> status quo; choosing to corral the tides of change with a dam that they use
> to power their Halls. They were clever enough to recognize that water too
> strictly controlled tends to erode the container, so they built into the
> Cycle a natural progression of social evolution; while limiting the
> technological evolution by a variety of means.
>
> In the end though, none of these answers, individually or as a group
> together, satisfy the problem, in my mind. But they provide a decent
> surface veneer that will bear the weight of a gentle scrutiny...one that
> perhaps is really only interested in enjoying a good story.
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Carey, B.A.(Hon), CHRL, CHRP
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 13:35:50 -0400
> From: "Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera"
> <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history
> and no one has invented a steam engine?
> Message-ID:
> <
> CANeR+DL_o_ioBd6sfH3FdB2pbTQE02gyi_0zC0RYYGp30bx-sA at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8
>
> Howard: you're getting your two perspectives mixed up: I'm aware of the
> explanations of why we, as humans who exist in OUR world, write about
> cultures with impossibly long histories. The challenge for me was to come
> up with a reason that makes sense the story world, so that we may further
> prolong the willing suspension of disbelief that all audiences create when
> they encounter any sufficiently entertaining entertainment.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jon Carey, B.A.(Hon), CHRL, CHRP
>
> On Mon, May 30, 2016 at 1:15 PM, Howard Brazee <howard at brazee.net> wrote:
>
> >
> > > On May 30, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera <
> > dragaera at lists.dragaera.info> wrote:
> > >
> > > 2) The Natural Maturation cycle of Dragaerans: they take almost a
> > thousand
> > > years, give or take a couple centuries, to reach adulthood. This is
> > BOUND
> > > to have a retarding (read: slowing) effect on the speed of their daily
> > > lives. Psychologically, this is very sound, but there are precious few
> > > examples of this actually being the case in the books themselves.
> > > Dragaerans, for all intents and purposes, seem to live as "quickly" as
> we
> > > do, just over a far longer period of time (which seems to be, very
> > roughly,
> > > 34x the length of an average Easterner's life).
> >
> > I have similar questions - but in the case of Dragaeran life span, I
> ended
> > up saying - because our fantasy tradition has long lived elves.
> Nothing
> > more. I have to suspend my disbelief. We *see* that advancements do
> > happen. We see science exists and is not suppressed. It won?t work
> to
> > try to make that make sense. As long as the stories are internally
> > consistent, we can accept the environment the same way as we accept FTL
> > space ships or time travel in our science fiction.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 13:59:54 -0400
> From: Alexx Kay via Dragaera <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
> To: "Jonathan Carey, CHRL" <carey.jonathan at gmail.com>
> Cc: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history
> and no one has invented a steam engine?
> Message-ID: <fd7cf530482d5b6e8cc50c1ae84f5809.squirrel at mail.panix.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain;charset=iso-8859-1
>
> > It also
> > seems that Dragaerans learn approximately as fast as Easterners do, so
> > another question arises: why isn't every Dragaeran a "renaissance man"
> > with
> > expert-level qualifications in almost every field?
>
> It may be that there is an upper limit to what the human/Dragaeran brain
> can hold. Dragaerans may learn as fast as humans, but they also forget
> stuff as fast. World-class expertise (in most fields) requires
> near-constant practice to maintain.
>
> > 4) Sethra Lavode and the Gods.
>
> This is the answer I go with, though it is certainly incomplete as of yet.
> Especially given that we have a documented surge in magic-tech after the
> Interregnum. Paarfi claims that the gods allowed this, but he's hardly the
> most reliable source.
>
> Given that the Gods seem to have a... unique relationship to time, it may
> be that they already know how/when the Cycle will finally end and/or their
> own Halls will be overthrown. This may tie into their "management" of
> tech levels.
>
> Alexx
>
> "Don't think of it as stealing, think of it as creative shopping!"
> -- Aleksandr Yevsha as Pantalone
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 11:23:03 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Philip Hart via Dragaera <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history
> and no one has invented a steam engine?
> Message-ID:
> <
> alpine.LRH.2.00.1605301114130.21132 at lcls-pc88374.slac.stanford.edu>
> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
>
>
>
> On Mon, 30 May 2016, Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera wrote:
>
> > 4) Sethra Lavode and the Gods. She exists to protect the Empire. The
> > Empire is a direct manifestation of the Cycle. The Cycle is...what,
> > exactly? Unknown, except we know that it's incredibly important to not
> > only Dragaerans, but also their Gods as well. It is very
> > conceivable--indeed, I would go so far as to say that it is
> > *probable*--that the Gods themselves are maintaining an otherwise
> unnatural
> > status quo; choosing to corral the tides of change with a dam that they
> use
> > to power their Halls. They were clever enough to recognize that water
> too
> > strictly controlled tends to erode the container, so they built into the
> > Cycle a natural progression of social evolution; while limiting the
> > technological evolution by a variety of means.
>
>
> I doubt Sethra cares about steam engines, or killing steam engineers.
> The Cycle, which I think we've seen is above the gods, may. I believe
> that's what I've argued on this list when we've discussed this topic in
> the past. Certainly one might appeal to an extraTextual source of texts,
> the works of Roger Zelazny, in particular _Lord of Light_, to find an
> example of a pantheon suppressing technology - flush toilets being a
> particularly pungent example.
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 5
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 15:31:41 -0400
> From: "corey+scratchfactory.com via Dragaera"
> <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
> To: dragaera at dragaera.info
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history
> and no one has invented a steam engine?
> Message-ID: <6B0252F3-B28C-4E09-AAF0-E2231E652B00 at scratchfactory.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
>
> Perhaps the sudden and unprecedented flourishing of sorcery during (or
> immediately after) the Interregnum gives weight to the idea that the Cycle
> somehow inhibits technological innovation?
>
> Perhaps part of the Cycle's purpose is to hold the world in a sort of
> stasis, perhaps as a way of resisting the Jenoine? So that when the Cycle
> was broken and the Orb lost, that necessary stasis was disrupted?
>
> > On May 30, 2016, at 2:23 PM, Philip Hart via Dragaera <
> dragaera at lists.dragaera.info> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Mon, 30 May 2016, Jonathan Carey, CHRL via Dragaera wrote:
> >>
> >> 4) Sethra Lavode and the Gods. She exists to protect the Empire. The
> >> Empire is a direct manifestation of the Cycle. The Cycle is...what,
> >> exactly? Unknown, except we know that it's incredibly important to not
> >> only Dragaerans, but also their Gods as well. It is very
> >> conceivable--indeed, I would go so far as to say that it is
> >> *probable*--that the Gods themselves are maintaining an otherwise
> unnatural
> >> status quo; choosing to corral the tides of change with a dam that they
> use
> >> to power their Halls. They were clever enough to recognize that water
> too
> >> strictly controlled tends to erode the container, so they built into the
> >> Cycle a natural progression of social evolution; while limiting the
> >> technological evolution by a variety of means.
> >
> >
> > I doubt Sethra cares about steam engines, or killing steam engineers.
> The Cycle, which I think we've seen is above the gods, may. I believe
> that's what I've argued on this list when we've discussed this topic in the
> past. Certainly one might appeal to an extraTextual source of texts, the
> works of Roger Zelazny, in particular _Lord of Light_, to find an example
> of a pantheon suppressing technology - flush toilets being a particularly
> pungent example.
> > _______________________________________________
> > Dragaera mailing list
> > Dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
> > http://lists.dragaera.info/listinfo.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 6
> Date: Mon, 30 May 2016 14:11:06 -0600
> From: Howard Brazee via Dragaera <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info>
> To: Dragaera List <dragaera at dragaera.info>
> Subject: Re: [Dragaera] Centuries and Centuries of Dragaeran history
> and no one has invented a steam engine?
> Message-ID: <7D98CB38-AF64-4819-9C81-09B4883050C3 at brazee.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
>
>
> > On May 30, 2016, at 1:31 PM, corey+scratchfactory.com via Dragaera <
> dragaera at lists.dragaera.info> wrote:
> >
> > Perhaps the sudden and unprecedented flourishing of sorcery during (or
> immediately after) the Interregnum gives weight to the idea that the Cycle
> somehow inhibits technological innovation?
> >
> > Perhaps part of the Cycle's purpose is to hold the world in a sort of
> stasis, perhaps as a way of resisting the Jenoine? So that when the Cycle
> was broken and the Orb lost, that necessary stasis was disrupted?
>
>
> Ooh, I like. If so, we may discover that in a future book.
>
> It?s funny - sometimes I wish I will live long enough to read the
> completed series. It?s not that I would know that I died early and
> missed it!
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Subject: Digest Footer
>
> _______________________________________________
> Dragaera mailing list
> Dragaera at lists.dragaera.info
> http://lists.dragaera.info/listinfo.cgi/dragaera-dragaera.info
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> End of Dragaera Digest, Vol 108, Issue 1
> ****************************************
>
More information about the Dragaera
mailing list