[Dragaera] Tiassa [nothing but spoilers]

[Philip Hart]

On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Alexx Kay wrote:

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>> Some random number of random comments: another strong Text, if more a
>> story cycle than a novel.
>
> Some random number of comments on the comments :-)

There were seventeen, but I agree this game is tiresome before it starts.


>> I think the early Paarfiad is great, but I like everything in the Vladiad
>> far more than the Piroiad (and now I have a simple explanation - he
>> didn't have the tiassa for the latter volumes),
>
> Huh, that interpretation had not occurred to me.  It seems, based on a
> simple reading, that Paarfi had possession of the ST for about 350 years.
> We don't now exactly how long he took to write the five volumes we have,
> but that period encompasses at least 200 years, and probably longer.

I didn't investigate closely, in part on philosophical grounds; I just 
like the conclusion.


>> Yeah, so it's totally clear Sethra's not Paarfi,
>
> Unpack?  I didn't see anything in the text that made that clear.

Devera seems pretty clearly to be some sort of embodiment of fate or 
the Cycle or anyway the Plot, and has access to some higher plane of 
perception apparently, and I don't think even Sethra could deceive her 
enough to pose as a male Hawklord who she locates directly at will.


>> the Orb location stuff
>> was another (because why not kill Kana that way),
>
> Mmmmmaybe.  There seems to have been a non-zero number of successful
> Imperial coups in the past, so there must be *some* extremely strong
> mechanism that prevents the sitting Emperor from directly killing a
> Pretender.

Maybe there's some level of skill involved.  Anyway we've trodden this 
ground into the, uh, ground.


>> and I guess we've argued
>> about how Vlad would trust anyone with his deepest secrets (we didn't
>> think of trinkets, probably).
>
> The trinkets were previously mentioned on p.15 of _Dragon_.

Oh, that's interesting - the "useful" in particular.


>> (I've been wondering for a while how Piro is still the Viscount - I would
>> think that House Tiassa would refuse to allow him to retain the title.)
>
> We don't know much about either the specifics of that title, or about
> House Tiassa politics.  It may be that the title has requirements that
> only Piro fills (e.g. "Must be a child of the Count/ess of Whitecrest").
> And/or, the House leadership doesn't want to antagonize Daro and Khaavren,
> who are two of their most prominent and powerful members.

Would Khaavren be that antagonized?  Anyway, it makes sense that there's 
no crisis while Daro lives - there's no investment ceremony where a morals 
test would be applied, for example.


>> So Pel is still PM.  I'm a bit surprised - in discussing _Iorich_ here I
>> said I didn't think he would have let things get so out of hand there (and
>> in _Orca_ and even _Teckla_/_Phoenix_
>
> Pel is skilled, but he's far from omnipotent or even omniscient.  We don't
> know much of what he's been doing, or what other crises he's been
> averting.  Well, we have a small inference from the fact that (so far as
> we know) there still hasn't been a massive economic meltdown due to the
> events of _Orca_.

It seems to me the Empire is really badly run.  Stresses or not.  And Pel 
shouldn't be overseeing this continual blundering, like expecting Aliera 
to escape and all the rest.


>> - oh, no mention of the first time
>> we and I guess Vlad saw Khaavren?).
>
> There's a good chance that Vlad first saw Khaavren either during an
> Imperial arrest early in his career (not yet fully documented), or at
> Morrolan's party.

This is page 201 in _Teckla_.  Vlad doesn't recognize him at all.  On page 
209 Khaavren doesn't recognize him.  It's a pretty charged encounter.  I 
would have thought there's be some note of it, or social interactions 
subsequent making that notice irrelevant.



>> I found the "Jhereg fake Jenoine invasion to get Vlad" idea hard to
>> believe
>
> It was certainly a risky maneuver, but it didn't strike me as completely
> implausible.  Perhaps Dathaani, while researching Vlad's history to try
> and figure out an angle to get to him, found out about the Silver Tiassa,
> and managed to get a true (or at least partial) account of its history and
> properties (we know he knew enough to be aware that Mafenyi had made it).
> Further speculating, perhaps Dathaani stole it *before* coming up with his
> subsequent plan, and possession of it gave him sufficient inspiration to
> come up with the rest of the plot.

I can certainly imagine some eager guy coming up with this; I can't 
imagine any manager approving the idea.  (Ok, it's not the Council, 
but still someone they picked, who's so reckless.)  Plus the details make 
no sense as I noted.  Here's another crack - Aliera has Pathfinder, no 
one needs Vlad to find the tiassa.  Maybe another - Timmer can find Vlad. 
Lady Teldra managed it not long ago.  Sethra presumably has her ways, as 
does the Necromancer.  Devera can look through the other place.  Maybe 
even Daymar can manage to find Loiosh.


>> Zerika could have just said to the Jhereg Council, "You've got a rogue
>> guy playing Jenoine, clean up this mess or I'll have the five of you
>> stacked up on a star to save the executioner trouble, and the top guy
>> goes on bottom".
>
> People on this list keep over-estimating the amount of raw power Zerika
> can exert against the Jhereg (or any large political bloc).  She's been
> quite clear, ever since way back in _Phoenix_, that she is constrained by
> lots of political factors.  And at the period when this plot takes place
> (post-_Orca_), the Jhereg have a substantial threat hanging over her head,
> that would get used if she took any large-scale action against their
> House.

As noted above, the Council wouldn't have approved this operation - Zerika 
just needs to let them know and they'll be on it so word doesn't leak out 
leading to their getting torn limb from limb.

And you're still ignoring the relevant timescales and the fact that the 
Jhereg threat to Vlad is (as we suspect and Sethra will I'm sure testify) 
not unfortunate but existential; plus the rest of my arguments.  _Tiassa_ 
says that war within the houses would be very bad at the moment, but the 
Jhereg are at the bottom of the cycle and doing one thing after another 
that seriously weaken the Empire - the barely-averted meltdown of 
_Jhereg_; Boralinoi (note that Zerika was happy to sacrifice a Council 
member without ceremony) blowing up a Phoenix Guard watchtower more or 
less causing the subsequent revolt; faking a Jenoine invasion and taking 
advantage of the Orb's finding capability which is apparently 
extraordinarily ticklish; pushing the plot of _Iorich_; trying to kill 
Vlad.  It sounds like most of the other Houses hate the Jhereg - I don't 
see how Zerika can't point out the above to anyone who asks why so many 
prominent Jhereg have been given short 30-year prison sentences.  And, 
well, as noted earlier I don't see any reason to believe the Empire needs 
the Jhereg, esp. compared to v.v. - they don't even have a genetic trait 
to conserve, if they were all wiped out it would be simple to start a new 
one to satisfy the Cycle.


>> The stuff about the Warlock was very interesting.  He and Vlad have a
>> whole lot to talk about, I wonder why they haven't.
>
> Vlad doesn't hang out at court much.  There's no obvious reason why the
> Warlock would want to approach him.

Vlad's the second-most prominent Easterner in the Empire, if not the 
first.  And he's done at least one unprecedented piece of witchcraft. 
And they have a bunch of mutual friends or acquaintances we know about, 
and, well, Noish-pa should be aware of him too and why not v.v.  I don't 
see why the Warlock doesn't scry out Vlad's location in the hinterland 
and have a chat with him.


Oh yeah, I've been wondering if Paarfi knows he's using "gya", pg.227/8.