[Dragaera] Tiassa [nothing but spoilers]

[Alexx Kay]

>
>
> On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Alexx Kay wrote:
>
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>>> Yeah, so it's totally clear Sethra's not Paarfi,
>>
>> Unpack?  I didn't see anything in the text that made that clear.
>
> Devera seems pretty clearly to be some sort of embodiment of fate or
> the Cycle or anyway the Plot,

Possible, but certainly not the only reading.

>and has access to some higher plane of
> perception apparently, and I don't think even Sethra could deceive her
> enough to pose as a male Hawklord who she locates directly at will.

I don't dispute that Devera *could* penetrate a Sethra disguise, if she
were, for some reason, to try.  But I don't think she has always-on
hypersenses, either.

>>> So Pel is still PM.  I'm a bit surprised - in discussing _Iorich_ here
>>> I
>>> said I didn't think he would have let things get so out of hand there
>>> (and
>>> in _Orca_ and even _Teckla_/_Phoenix_
>>
>> Pel is skilled, but he's far from omnipotent or even omniscient.  We
>> don't
>> know much of what he's been doing, or what other crises he's been
>> averting.  Well, we have a small inference from the fact that (so far as
>> we know) there still hasn't been a massive economic meltdown due to the
>> events of _Orca_.
>
> It seems to me the Empire is really badly run.  Stresses or not.

That may be.  Or this appearance may be due to the fact that, when a
government is running well, it doesn't (usually) generate stories.  Almost
by definition, we only see stories about governments when they are having
problems.

>And Pel
> shouldn't be overseeing this continual blundering, like expecting Aliera
> to escape and all the rest.

Actually, Pel's involvement with that particular plot makes it *more*
plausible to me, not less.  It is, definitely, a *stupid* plot.  But it's
precisely the kind of stupid that an experienced, romantic, and
overconfident Yendi would fall prey to.

>>> - oh, no mention of the first time
>>> we and I guess Vlad saw Khaavren?).
>>
>> There's a good chance that Vlad first saw Khaavren either during an
>> Imperial arrest early in his career (not yet fully documented), or at
>> Morrolan's party.
>
> This is page 201 in _Teckla_.  Vlad doesn't recognize him at all.

That does seem to be a bit of a crack, now that you mention it

>On page
> 209 Khaavren doesn't recognize him.

Not so much here.  "He looked at me and his face tightened. He nodded
once." and a few lines later "He stared at me for a moment, then looked
away as if I were so much carrion."  There's not enough info there to say
whether or not Khaavren recognized Vlad (though it's clear that he's not
friends!).

>>> I found the "Jhereg fake Jenoine invasion to get Vlad" idea hard to
>>> believe
>>
>> It was certainly a risky maneuver, but it didn't strike me as completely
>> implausible.  Perhaps Dathaani, while researching Vlad's history to try
>> and figure out an angle to get to him, found out about the Silver
>> Tiassa,
>> and managed to get a true (or at least partial) account of its history
>> and
>> properties (we know he knew enough to be aware that Mafenyi had made
>> it).
>> Further speculating, perhaps Dathaani stole it *before* coming up with
>> his
>> subsequent plan, and possession of it gave him sufficient inspiration to
>> come up with the rest of the plot.
>
> I can certainly imagine some eager guy coming up with this; I can't
> imagine any manager approving the idea.  (Ok, it's not the Council,
> but still someone they picked, who's so reckless.)  Plus the details make
> no sense as I noted.  Here's another crack - Aliera has Pathfinder, no
> one needs Vlad to find the tiassa.  Maybe another - Timmer can find Vlad.
> Lady Teldra managed it not long ago.  Sethra presumably has her ways, as
> does the Necromancer.  Devera can look through the other place.  Maybe
> even Daymar can manage to find Loiosh.

The Jhereg in general (and Dathaani in particular) don't know about most
of those possible Vlad-finding means.

As to why the Good Guys didn't use those methods, let's take them one at a
time:

Does Pathfinder actually work on objects?  The only examples of its use
that I recall off-hand involved finding people.  And the plot at the
climax of _Jhereg_ might have been a little simpler if Pathfinder could
have been used to locate the gold which Mellar stole.

Timmer, so far as we know, hasn't told anyone that she even knows Vlad at
this point, much less that she can locate him.  When she finally does
speak to her commanding officer about knowing Vlad (pgs.285-287), she is
still quite reticent about details.  (And during "Whitecrest", we have no
reason to think that Timmer was aware people were looking for Vlad.

Lady Teldra is... unavailable at the time of "Whitecrest".

Sethra Lavode and the Necromancer are both actively on the Good Guy team,
and *could* probably find Vlad if they tried.  This is a bit of a crack. 
I'll see what (if anything) I can do to paper it over when I get to
_Tiassa_ in my Timeline work.

Devera could certainly find the tiassa, but do any of the Good Guys *know*
that?

Daymar could certainly find Loiosh, as could any number of other people --
but this requires a level of insight that is demonstrably rare (or Vlad
would be long-dead by now).

>>> Zerika could have just said to the Jhereg Council, "You've got a rogue
>>> guy playing Jenoine, clean up this mess or I'll have the five of you
>>> stacked up on a star to save the executioner trouble, and the top guy
>>> goes on bottom".
>>
>> People on this list keep over-estimating the amount of raw power Zerika
>> can exert against the Jhereg (or any large political bloc).  She's been
>> quite clear, ever since way back in _Phoenix_, that she is constrained
>> by
>> lots of political factors.  And at the period when this plot takes place
>> (post-_Orca_), the Jhereg have a substantial threat hanging over her
>> head,
>> that would get used if she took any large-scale action against their
>> House.
>
> As noted above, the Council wouldn't have approved this operation - Zerika
> just needs to let them know and they'll be on it so word doesn't leak out
> leading to their getting torn limb from limb.

By the time Zerika knows that it's a Jhereg hoax, the situation has been
defused, and the (immediate) perpetrator arrested.  She's got no reason to
threaten the Jhereg Council.

> And you're still ignoring the relevant timescales and the fact that the
> Jhereg threat to Vlad is (as we suspect and Sethra will I'm sure testify)
> not unfortunate but existential;

Really?  As readers, we can be sure due to genre conventions that Vlad is
Important (and that All Prophecies Are True.  But Sethra's information
sources are weaker than that.  I'm sure she *suspects* Vlad's Importance,
but I rather doubt that she feels the universe (or even the Empire) is
necessarily doomed if he dies.

>plus the rest of my arguments.  _Tiassa_
> says that war within the houses would be very bad at the moment, but the
> Jhereg are at the bottom of the cycle and doing one thing after another
> that seriously weaken the Empire - the barely-averted meltdown of
> _Jhereg_; Boralinoi (note that Zerika was happy to sacrifice a Council
> member without ceremony) blowing up a Phoenix Guard watchtower more or
> less causing the subsequent revolt; faking a Jenoine invasion and taking
> advantage of the Orb's finding capability which is apparently
> extraordinarily ticklish; pushing the plot of _Iorich_; trying to kill
> Vlad.  It sounds like most of the other Houses hate the Jhereg - I don't
> see how Zerika can't point out the above to anyone who asks why so many
> prominent Jhereg have been given short 30-year prison sentences.  And,
> well, as noted earlier I don't see any reason to believe the Empire needs
> the Jhereg, esp. compared to v.v. - they don't even have a genetic trait
> to conserve, if they were all wiped out it would be simple to start a new
> one to satisfy the Cycle.

v.v.?

I still think you have a basic misunderstanding of how politics works. 
All the powerful sub-groups are invested in the system and the status quo.
 They hope to improve their relative positions within that system, but the
system itself is sacrosanct.  All the powerful people get basic levels of
protection, no matter what their party.  (For examples from our world, see
how rare impeachment attempts are, and how *vanishingly* rare *successful*
impeachments happen.)

On rare occasions, a particular powerful individual may find their power
lessened and themselves disgraced.  But large-scale attacks on the system
are perceived as a threat by pretty much everybody, and shut down hard.

And talking about wiping out an entire House?  1/17th (roughly) of the
population?  Some Terran leaders have carried out those levels of
genocide, but history doesn't remember them well.  I certainly can't
conceive of Zerika even considering such an act.

>>> The stuff about the Warlock was very interesting.  He and Vlad have a
>>> whole lot to talk about, I wonder why they haven't.
>>
>> Vlad doesn't hang out at court much.  There's no obvious reason why the
>> Warlock would want to approach him.
>
> Vlad's the second-most prominent Easterner in the Empire, if not the
> first.

That *we* know of.

>  And he's done at least one unprecedented piece of witchcraft.

That no one (except Steven Brust and maybe Sethra Lavode) knows about.

> And they have a bunch of mutual friends or acquaintances we know about,

Oh sure, they *could* have been introduced.  I'm just saying it's not that
odd that they haven't been.

> and, well, Noish-pa should be aware of him too

Why?  Because he subscribes to Witchcraft Monthly, and they had a writeup
on Brimford last month?

>and why not v.v.  I don't
> see why the Warlock doesn't scry out Vlad's location in the hinterland
> and have a chat with him.

He might be able to, if he was clever and indirect about it.  But has
anyone asked him to?  Would he have any particular reason to do so on his
own initiative?

I get the impression that Brimford just isn't an attention-seeking guy. 
He's happy being Zerika's lover.  The fact that it's a 'rumor' that he has
that status suggests that he isn't officially acknowledged as Consort, nor
does he 'hang out at Court' on a regular basis.

> Oh yeah, I've been wondering if Paarfi knows he's using "gya", pg.227/8.

Obviously he is *not* using "gya" during that interchange.  Why,
precisely, he was not, might make for an interesting linguistic footnote,
but, sadly, S.B. did not deign to leave us one.

Alexx

"The brief, endless instant of being possessed, ridden, or taken over by
 one of the archetypes, the god forms.  The shattering and sudden
 knowledge that you are not you, have never been you, are only a fragile
 and temporary mask for... I don't know.  Shit, I write comics, okay?
 I don't know..."
    -- Alan Moore in correspondence with Dave Sim about _From Hell_