[Dragaera] Tiassa [nothing but spoilers]

[Philip Hart]

On Thu, 7 Apr 2011, Alexx Kay wrote:

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>> On Sun, 3 Apr 2011, Alexx Kay wrote:
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>
>> and has access to some higher plane of
>> perception apparently, and I don't think even Sethra could deceive her
>> enough to pose as a male Hawklord who she locates directly at will.
>
> I don't dispute that Devera *could* penetrate a Sethra disguise, if she
> were, for some reason, to try.  But I don't think she has always-on
> hypersenses, either.

I probably wasn't clear.  Here's what I take it Devera is doing: she looks 
through the other place for interesting things and people, and can just go 
there.  She doesn't (I think) zap back to the spot she saw Paarfi at 
before, she just looks for him.  If he's Sethra 95% of the time then oops.

I should note that one reason I've speculated about Sethra using Paarfi 
is the utility of getting the histories before the public to inspire and 
unify the empire.  I'm beginning to suspect that _Tiassa_ takes away from 
that argument because the Plot seems to be taking so much interest in him.


> That may be.  Or this appearance may be due to the fact that, when a
> government is running well, it doesn't (usually) generate stories.  Almost
> by definition, we only see stories about governments when they are having
> problems.

It's odd that Vlad seems to be mixed up in so many of these events if 
they're rare.


>> And Pel
>> shouldn't be overseeing this continual blundering, like expecting Aliera
>> to escape and all the rest.
>
> Actually, Pel's involvement with that particular plot makes it *more*
> plausible to me, not less.  It is, definitely, a *stupid* plot.  But it's
> precisely the kind of stupid that an experienced, romantic, and
> overconfident Yendi would fall prey to.

Once - well, I don't think so, but ok.  Not however many times I'm 
claiming in Vlad's own experience.


>> On page 209 Khaavren doesn't recognize him.
>
> Not so much here.  "He looked at me and his face tightened. He nodded
> once." and a few lines later "He stared at me for a moment, then looked
> away as if I were so much carrion."  There's not enough info there to say
> whether or not Khaavren recognized Vlad (though it's clear that he's not
> friends!).

I'm fine with no recognition, I think - maybe Khaavren hasn't gone to a 
party in a few years - the trouble is that they should talk about this 
when next they meet.


> Does Pathfinder actually work on objects?  The only examples of its use
> that I recall off-hand involved finding people.  And the plot at the
> climax of _Jhereg_ might have been a little simpler if Pathfinder could
> have been used to locate the gold which Mellar stole.

The Serioli Vlad meets says something about "objects", though I don't 
recall Aliera using it except for people and Jenoine.  I also don't know 
to what extent the Jhereg should know that Pathfinder should be able to 
find Vlad if not the tiassa, but surely all the good guys do, starting 
with Sethra.  (I think it's said in _Jhereg_ that Mellar doesn't know 
about Pathfinder because it's too recent an acquisition, suggesting the 
Jhereg should know now.)

Good point about the gold but I think I can explain it away as not having 
any distinguishing properties.  I don't at the moment recall why it 
didn't matter to the Jhereg but does Sethra really not have enough in 
some cavern to cover what Mellar stole?


> Timmer, so far as we know, hasn't told anyone that she even knows Vlad at
> this point, much less that she can locate him.  When she finally does
> speak to her commanding officer about knowing Vlad (pgs.285-287), she is
> still quite reticent about details.  (And during "Whitecrest", we have no
> reason to think that Timmer was aware people were looking for Vlad.

I assume Timmer listens to scuttlebutt and realizes the seriousness of 
using the Orb so would speak up.


> Lady Teldra is... unavailable at the time of "Whitecrest".

Yeah, poor joke, but she was given a method of locating Vlad by Sethra. 
And I imagine _her_ soul is locatable too.

> Sethra Lavode and the Necromancer are both actively on the Good Guy team,
> and *could* probably find Vlad if they tried.  This is a bit of a crack.
> I'll see what (if anything) I can do to paper it over when I get to
> _Tiassa_ in my Timeline work.


> Devera could certainly find the tiassa, but do any of the Good Guys *know*
> that?

Sethra?


> Daymar could certainly find Loiosh, as could any number of other people --
> but this requires a level of insight that is demonstrably rare (or Vlad
> would be long-dead by now).

Loiosh was the finder-of-Daymar back in the day, iirc, so the latter knows 
his brain patterns.  Sethra should be smart enough to think of this, or 
Kiera, esp. since she knows Timmer's trick.


>>>> Zerika could have just said to the Jhereg Council, "You've got a rogue
>>>> guy playing Jenoine, clean up this mess or I'll have the five of you
>>>> stacked up on a star to save the executioner trouble, and the top guy
>>>> goes on bottom".
>>>
>>> People on this list keep over-estimating the amount of raw power Zerika
>>> can exert against the Jhereg (or any large political bloc).  She's been
>>> quite clear, ever since way back in _Phoenix_, that she is constrained
>>> by
>>> lots of political factors.  And at the period when this plot takes place
>>> (post-_Orca_), the Jhereg have a substantial threat hanging over her
>>> head,
>>> that would get used if she took any large-scale action against their
>>> House.
>>
>> As noted above, the Council wouldn't have approved this operation - Zerika
>> just needs to let them know and they'll be on it so word doesn't leak out
>> leading to their getting torn limb from limb.
>
> By the time Zerika knows that it's a Jhereg hoax, the situation has been
> defused, and the (immediate) perpetrator arrested.  She's got no reason to
> threaten the Jhereg Council.

My attempted point was that I don't see a need for Cawti/Norathar/Daro to 
clean up the situation at great concern about Zerika finding out.  Per 
your view I think you should find that concern silly, because you see 
Zerika as highly constrained and aware of the fact.


>> And you're still ignoring the relevant timescales and the fact that the
>> Jhereg threat to Vlad is (as we suspect and Sethra will I'm sure testify)
>> not unfortunate but existential;
>
> Really?  As readers, we can be sure due to genre conventions that Vlad is
> Important (and that All Prophecies Are True.  But Sethra's information
> sources are weaker than that.  I'm sure she *suspects* Vlad's Importance,
> but I rather doubt that she feels the universe (or even the Empire) is
> necessarily doomed if he dies.

I think the events of _Issola_ alone show that Vlad is essential.  And I 
assume that Verra knows this independently and has told Sethra.  (In fact 
this is the best counter-argument to my position I'm aware of - Vlad is 
foreknown to appear at Ragnarà kso there's no point worrying about the 
Jhereg killing him - the Cycle is using them to teach him some useful 
skills or attitudes or just keeping him out of some other fatal trouble.)



>> [blah blah] - I don't see how Zerika can't point out the above to 
>> anyone who asks why so many prominent Jhereg have been given short 
>> 30-year prison sentences.  And, well, as noted earlier I don't see any 
>> reason to believe the Empire needs the Jhereg, esp. compared to v.v. - 
>> they don't even have a genetic trait to conserve, if they were all 
>> wiped out it would be simple to start a new one to satisfy the Cycle.
>
> v.v.?

Vice-versa, the Jhereg are dependent on help from the Empire to function, 
as Vlad explains to Timmer.


> I still think you have a basic misunderstanding of how politics works.
> All the powerful sub-groups are invested in the system and the status quo.

The Jhereg are at the bottom of the Cycle.  They can't kick against the 
pricks, the Cycle is too strong.

> They hope to improve their relative positions within that system, but the
> system itself is sacrosanct.  All the powerful people get basic levels of
> protection, no matter what their party.

Not long ago almost the entire leadership of the Jhereg and the Dragon 
were killed, and now the Empire is stronger against the Jenoine than 
before.  Powerful tribes get suppressed all the time.

> On rare occasions, a particular powerful individual may find their power
> lessened and themselves disgraced.  But large-scale attacks on the system
> are perceived as a threat by pretty much everybody, and shut down hard.

Note that I'm arguing that the Jhereg have been making just such attacks 
from the Houses' perspective - assassinating an Emperor, the 
aforementioned mess, the Boralini mess, the Aliera thing, the Jenoine 
fake and the attempt at manipulating the Orb in order to kill a noble 
with a Morganti weapon, ...


> And talking about wiping out an entire House?  1/17th (roughly) of the
> population?  Some Terran leaders have carried out those levels of
> genocide, but history doesn't remember them well.  I certainly can't
> conceive of Zerika even considering such an act.

Well, I suspect rather more than 50% of the population is Teckla.  And the 
Jhereg hold a special place among the Houses.  My point was they wouldn't 
actually be missed, and could be reconstituted if need be.  But Zerika has 
no need to resort to such measures - she just has to find anyone tasked 
with killing Vlad and put him in jail for the < 30 years Vlad has left in 
his natural life, or anyway until after high noon.  She just has to let 
slip the fact that the Jenoine invasion was a Jhereg hoax and allow events 
to unfold.  She can crack down on corruption in the Phoenix Guard.  She 
can suggest to Pel that he work up a plot to get half the Council to kill 
the other half, put his own guy in one of the vacant spots, and make sure 
that Vlad gets a warning whenever anything's up.

The Jhereg are after Vlad principally because he threatened the Imperial 
representative, who matters because the House needs the Empire's help to 
function.  Now the Jhereg are messing with the Empire.  It seems to me 
that the damage is done, and a smart bunch of guys would cut their losses 
before events get out of control.


>>>> The stuff about the Warlock was very interesting.  He and Vlad have a
>>>> whole lot to talk about, I wonder why they haven't.
>>>
>>> Vlad doesn't hang out at court much.  There's no obvious reason why the
>>> Warlock would want to approach him.
>>
>> Vlad's the second-most prominent Easterner in the Empire, if not the
>> first.
>
> That *we* know of.

Someone else has stopped a war, rescued Morrolan and Aliera and killed a 
Jenoine, single-handedly taken care of two recent bungles that could have 
had disastrous consequences, led the Jhereg a very merry chase for years, 
etc. etc.?  Then it's pretty odd that Vlad hasn't mentioned him at all.


>>  And he's done at least one unprecedented piece of witchcraft.
>
> That no one (except Steven Brust and maybe Sethra Lavode) knows about.

Sethra knows because Morrolan's alive.  Has Vlad really not told anyone 
else?  Not Noish-pa or Cawti?  Did Verra's witchcraft aspect not notice?


>> And they have a bunch of mutual friends or acquaintances we know about,
>
> Oh sure, they *could* have been introduced.  I'm just saying it's not that
> odd that they haven't been.

My point was that that would make him more likely to be interested in 
Vlad.  If nothing else he might want to say thanks for extricating Zerika 
from some tight spots.


>> and, well, Noish-pa should be aware of him too
>
> Why?  Because he subscribes to Witchcraft Monthly, and they had a writeup
> on Brimford last month?

Noish-pa's an accomplished witch.  He's spent time in Morrolan's lab, 
at a castle where there's a big population of witches.  Cawti's in awe 
of the Warlock, and knows him well enough to know how he sees himself.
These folks talk shop, or we have to give up thinking about this world.


>> and why not v.v.  I don't
>> see why the Warlock doesn't scry out Vlad's location in the hinterland
>> and have a chat with him.
>
> He might be able to, if he was clever and indirect about it.  But has
> anyone asked him to?  Would he have any particular reason to do so on his
> own initiative?

He's a stranger in a strange land, he has to fill his hours when Zerika's 
at court, and it seems really bizarre to me to think he wouldn't be 
interested in Vlad.  If not he's just, well, not interesting.


> I get the impression that Brimford just isn't an attention-seeking guy.
> He's happy being Zerika's lover.  The fact that it's a 'rumor' that he has
> that status suggests that he isn't officially acknowledged as Consort, nor
> does he 'hang out at Court' on a regular basis.

Having a private chat with Vlad wouldn't be attention-seeking.  And it's 
extremely convenient for Zerika to maintain the polite fiction that 
Brimford's just a guy she knew from that business with Kana, e.g. it 
lets her continue to talk to the representative of the Lyorn.



>> Oh yeah, I've been wondering if Paarfi knows he's using "gya", pg.227/8.
>
> Obviously he is *not* using "gya" during that interchange.  Why,
> precisely, he was not, might make for an interesting linguistic footnote,
> but, sadly, S.B. did not deign to leave us one.

Maybe he's writing in Serioli for practice, or in the Lyorn librarian 
language....