[Dragaera] Hawk

[Jerry Friedman via Dragaera]

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> On Thursday, October 23, 2014 12:46 AM, Joshua Kronengold via Dragaera <dragaera at lists.dragaera.info> wrote:
> > 
> On 10/22/2014 11:45 PM, Jerry Friedman via Dragaera wrote:
>>  Things I don't get about /Hawk/:
> 
> Let me take a stab.

Heh.

>>  Vlad forgot to tell Khaavren to start proceedings if he's held 
> captive.  The Council could hold him in some basement and make him write 
> Khaavren periodic letters saying he's having a wonderful time.  He also 
> forgot to leave his enemy a way of escape.  He's likely (though not certain) 
> to die of old age while the Council members are still alive, and if that time 
> approaches, they'll have no incentive to let him die naturally instead of 
> killing him Morganti.  By the way, there could be an amusing plot where the 
> Jhereg try to use whatever they can to keep Vlad from doing anything risky.
> Vlad is assuming (correctly, I think) that the Jhereg can't hold him 
> indefinitely.  And if they try that approach and he escapes (or, with 
> his set of very impressive friends, is rescued) then he will, of course, 
> withdraw his request and they'll be in big trouble.

The possibility of rescue is a good one.  (Otherwise I don't see why they
couldn't hold him indefinitely.)

Of course, if he does withdraw his request, for that or any other reason,
he's back where he started.  He and the Jhereg have a relationship of Mutually
Assured Destruction now.  Their destruction is more assured than his but less
complete.

> Old age is a very good question.  But Vlad has a lot of play there when 
> it gets close--he can change it to "if I die Morganti", or whatnot.  
> And 
> it's possible that there is a a statute of limitations -- this might not 
> hold the Jhereg forever, but it gives Vlad time to find another way to 
> keep the peace.
> 
> Plus--who really thinks that Vlad is going to die of old age, anyway?

No one, but the possibility of an earlier death just gives the Jhereg more
reason to kill him Morganti while they can.

In fact, they should be preparing for the possibility that he'll die for
some reason unrelated to them.  They can hide their wealth (/Do you mean
cover their assets?/  /Shut up./) and cut apparent ties to as many
associates as possible.  Once they've done that, they might start thinking
about killing Vlad again. 

>>  Vlad says in Chapter 16 that if the bad guys had tried to stop his heart 
> and attack him with the knife at the same time, he'd have had problems.  So 
> why didn't they?  Specifically, stop his heart or maybe better his 
> breathing, not to kill him, but to make him too weak to block the knife.

> Because they didn't want to risk that he wouldn't block the heart 
> stopping and die.  At which point, the Morganti weapon is so much metal.

That's why breathing might be better.  Surely they know that if you
choke somebody, the person is unconscious for a couple minutes before
dying.  That's plenty of time for the Morganti knife to do its work.

>>  What are the three Council members guilty of?  They haven't done 
> anything except receive psychic messages to watch Vlad listen in on them.  They 
> certainly haven't done anything for gain or anything that puts Imperial 
> security at risk (yet).

> Intent and conspiracy.  They received the technology to spy on messages 
> through the Orb with clear intent to use it for profit.

There's nothing in the statute about intent or conspiracy.  And if those
count, Vlad is guiltier than anyone else, because he was part of the
conspiracy and he did intend to gain something.  The thing about "I
didn't gain anything, because they betrayed me" wouldn't apply.  (And in fact, he
did gain what he wanted, namely to get the bounty removed, though indirectly.)

>>  How does the Council's situation here differ from the one in /Jhereg/?  
> There, the Council was willing to start a "war" that would have gotten 
> a lot of them killed rather than let Mellar live a few more /days/.  Here, 
> they're willing to let Vlad live indefinitely rather than /risk/ that the 
> Justicers will lash three of them and confiscate a lot of money.

> It's a good question.  Of course, one big difference is the difference 
> between Vlad's situation and Mellar's.  Mellar screwed the Jhereg over, 
> big time, in a matter of money.  He needed to be dead, and soon -- or a 
> lot of other guys might decide that it was worth the risk.
 
That seems equally true of informing to the Empire.
 
> Also, note 
> that while a war with the Dragon would kill a lot of Jhereg, it wouldn't 
> kill any -specific- Jhereg, necessarily, so the council members could 
> enter it with the illusion that they weren't personally going to die.

True, but in /Hawk/ no one's going to die at all.

> On the contrary, Vlad broke a lot of House laws, but didn't actually 
> screw over the Jhereg in a material way; no money was lost,
 
But a prominent Jhereg was handed over to be executed.
 
> and while 
> the Jhereg need to make sure the laws he broke are respected, they don't 
> (except when they do) have something personal behind it. The Demon even 
> likes Vlad--but rules are rules.  So when Vlad is offering them a -lot- 
> of money (and note: they're still planning on using the psychic spying 
> spells; if it wasn't illegal it wouldn't be worth doing, right?)--a deal 
> they already took, even if they broke it, and with their personal necks 
> on the line?  It's a good enough play to not set a precident, and they 
> have personal motivation to toe it.

There is that.  Saves their face somewhat, unless the whole story gets
out.
 
It would be interesting to know how the bounty on Vlad compares to the
amount Mellar took.

> Also, note that this isn't a risk.  The sentence is very, very clear; 
> it's just in abeyance as long as Vlad keeps it that way.

It's a risk because there's no certainty they'll be convicted.  They're
powerful people (though unpopular) who can afford bribes and good advocates,
and the Empire might not want to destabilize the Jhereg too much.  And even
if they do get convicted, the Justicers might be lenient with the sentence,
since no harm has been done.

>>  Complicated one: If Vlad gets killed, how can Khaavren get the Council 
> members convicted, assuming they've committed a crime?  As far as I can 
> tell, Khaavren has no evidence except Vlad's account of what he was 
> planning, and Vlad won't be able to testify.  Could the Justicers compel the 
> suspects to testify under the Orb?  If so, how, by keeping them in prison till 
> they do?  They might prefer prison to that mass confiscation.  Or by torture?  
> And if they can be compelled to testify, why couldn't Count Szurke always 
> have gotten them compelled to testify about the price on his head?  Maybe they 
> never said, "We'll put a bounty on him", but the Justicers could 
> ask, "If someone had destroyed Count Szurke's soul, would that person 
> have received money?  From what funds?  Who would have authorized the 
> payment?" etc.

> Khaavren was, himself, the witness; Vlad prepared the ground, and 
> Khaavren saw/listened to the whole thing.  Thus, there's an impecable 
> witness to the crime, one who is -not- forbidden by house law from 
> testifying against the Jhereg.

Do we know that Khaavren saw or heard it?  Or are you just inferring that from
the situation?

And if he did, why doesn't anyone say anything about the crime that
unquestionably was committed, namely attempted Morganti murder for hire, which
the Empire takes very seriously?



By the way, if Khaavren's going to testify, he's taking a risk.  Someone

might
ask why he didn't do the obvious thing and try to stop Vlad from spreading
information that threatens Imperial security.  He may think the Third Floor Relic
ring is worth that risk.

[snip what we agree on]

Jerry Friedman